# Shouldn't we be pledging allegiance to the constitution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122 "2006-12-30T17:10:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/1 "2006-12-30T17:10:19Z")
The flag is a decorated piece of fabric that says nothing about what this country should stand for. Either a communist or a fascist government could still fly the flag unchanged. Not so the constitution. When school kids are taught to pledge allegiance to the flag, they are being conditioned to subject themselves to whoever happens to be in control of the flag at any particular time, whatever the ideology of said flag-controller is. Shouldn’t we be pledging allegiance to the constitution instead? That would be a lot more meaningful and more “american” than pledging to the flag. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/2 "2006-12-30T17:55:17Z")
You should pledge alleigence to your fellow citizens. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/3 "2006-12-30T18:43:17Z")
I don’t think so. The constitution outlines what powers we, the people, grant to our government and lists the constraints that we place upon it. A citizen, acting as a citizen, can’t violate the constitution-- only the government can. It is appropriate for our elected officials to pledge to uphold the constitution, but we really can’t do that ourselves. Now, whether we should pledge allegiance to the flag is another matter. The flag is a symbol of the country, and it doesn’t seem out of line for us, as citizens, to pledge allegiance to it. If we so choose, that is. No private citizen should be be forced to do so, and the SCOTUS has upheld that position. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/4 "2006-12-30T19:58:52Z")
Pledging to the flag is, I think, originally a relic of a much more fascist and statist past than now makes sense in both the modern world and in an America with a much fuller understanding of what it really means to be a liberal democracy. But it has also become just a tradition, and people will defend tradition for traditions sake without having any particular grander rationale (or sometimes having one that basically attacks all those who see the tradition differently as being unpatriotic or what have you). I think it’s also somewhat generational. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/5 "2006-12-30T20:02:34Z")
Don’t you also pledge to the Republic for which the flag stands? Since the republic is defined by its people and constitution/laws, you seem to be okay. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/6 "2006-12-30T20:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Don’t you also pledge to the Republic for which the flag stands? [/QUOTE] Yep, although technically both. _I pledge allegiance to the flag of the US of A. And to the Republic for which it stands…_ ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/7 "2006-12-30T21:51:44Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Yep, although technically both. _I pledge allegiance to the flag of the US of A. And to the Republic for which it stands…_ [/QUOTE] Your pledge is to the country. The flag is the visible symbol of the country. Each day, your pledge is made to that visible symbol, symbolic of your pledge to the country itself. You can’t pledge to the constitution as easily, because it isn’t as easily displayed, nor is it a symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/8 "2006-12-30T23:19:39Z")
Don’t know about you; however, when I affirmed my reenlistment oath, I promised “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/9 "2006-12-30T23:21:37Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Your pledge is to the country. The flag is the visible symbol of the country. Each day, your pledge is made to that visible symbol, symbolic of your pledge to the country itself. [/quote] True, and that’s why I said “technically”-- because if you read the pledge, it says we pledge to the flag and the country. Strange wording since we only pledge to the flag inasmuch as it represents the country. > [@](#): > > You can’t pledge to the constitution as easily, because it isn’t as easily displayed, nor is it a symbol. And, as I said above, the constitution isn’t about what the citizens should or should not do but what the government can and cannot do. A pledge to the constitution by the citizens, as citizens, would be rather meaningless. Wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/10 "2006-12-31T01:17:59Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] You should pledge alleigence to your fellow citizens. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Of course an Israeli would say that. I would pledge allegiance to the land, or nothing. Persons come & go, but the ecological substrate allows us to exist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/11 "2006-12-31T01:46:42Z")
Don’t forget the kids. The flag has a lot more meaning to a 5 year old than the piece of paper with characters on it that you can’t see because it is so far away. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/12 "2006-12-31T01:51:05Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] would pledge allegiance to the land, or nothing. Persons come & go, but the ecological substrate allows us to exist. [/QUOTE] Well you might as well pledge allegience to the sun as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/13 "2006-12-31T01:56:55Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] :rolleyes: Of course an Israeli would say that. [/quote] Gah? Where’s _that_ coming from? > [@](#): > > I would pledge allegiance to the land, or nothing. Persons come & go, but the ecological substrate allows us to exist. Unfortunately, “ecological substrate” doesn’t scan very well. Besides, nature is full of things that can kill you, given half a chance, while the pledge at least claims to be striving for liberty and justice for all. Personally, I’m glad an equivalent ritual wasn’t pushed at my schools, though I have a vague recollection of mumbling along to something I later guessed was the Lord’s Prayer, circa 1975 or so. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/14 "2006-12-31T01:59:54Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Personally, I’m glad an equivalent ritual wasn’t pushed at my schools, though I have a vague recollection of mumbling along to something I later guessed was the Lord’s Prayer, circa 1975 or so. [/QUOTE] We did the Lord’s Prayer in class in Saskatchewan up to at least 1983 or so. Though that may have been the purview of one particular teacher and not a province wide decision. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/15 "2006-12-31T04:54:30Z")
As noted above, the Pledge of Allegiance includes reference to the “republic for which [the flag] stands,” the basic law of which is the Constitution. All American public officials of all branches, whether Federal, state or local, are required to be “bound by oath or affirmation… to support this Constitution…” Art. VI, Sec. 3. Although I say the POA pretty often (mostly at Cub Scout meetings), I swore an oath to the U.S. and Ohio constitutions both as a lawyer and later as a magistrate, and those carry a lot more weight for me. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/16 "2007-01-01T06:44:35Z")
Dagnabbit. Won’t that lead to folks burning the Constitution? I mean, just like they burn the flag now? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/17 "2007-01-01T15:43:52Z")
Carl Sagan talks about this in the last chapter of The Demon Haunted World titled, IIRC, _Real Patriots Ask Questions_. I agree that we should not be pledging our allegiance to a piece of fabric. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/18 "2007-01-01T16:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] :rolleyes: Of course an Israeli would say that. [/QUOTE] I have no idea what that means. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/19 "2007-01-01T18:11:44Z")
[QUOTE=foolsguinea] :rolleyes: Of course an Israeli would say that. [/QUOTE] I too, find this statement odd. Why the rolleyes? Why jump on the nationality of the poster? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-pledging-allegiance-to-the-constitution/386122/20 "2007-01-01T20:29:41Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I too, find this statement odd. Why the rolleyes? Why jump on the nationality of the poster? [/QUOTE] Eh, shaddup, Ohio-boy. 😃