# Shouldn't We be Teaching ID in Science Class? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425 "2007-11-22T14:34:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/101 "2007-11-30T23:53:32Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] Instead of teaching or reviewing Intelligent Design I recommend having an assignment. Every student must scour the Internet or books for one debate point that Intelligent Design puts forth, to be later addressed in class. The teacher will of course need to read them first as complex knowledge in an incredible number of fields is sometimes required. Some answers will require only a few minutes, some the entire day so this project may take a week or so, but I can’t think of anything the average High school student could learn in a week that is more important that this. For students to fully understand what Intelligent Design is bringing up and why science doesn’t agree is to understand science itself. [/QUOTE] There is only so much time that kids get instruction on evolution. You’d take up too much of it to do that. And then you’d have to train all the teachers on the debunking of ID. Folks, you just have to let it go. The world will get along just fine w/o making every science class into a forum for debunking ID (plus the dozens of other crackpot ideas out there). ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/102 "2007-12-01T00:25:11Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Move the goalposts much? That’s quite a bit different from: “…it did not even present a compelling case against 'irreducible complexity.” Nothing is going to be so thorough that it will ensure everyone will be convinced of an argument. Especially when half the country is predisposed not to believe in the first place. It was good show, but didn’t live up to your standards. BFD. [/QUOTE] No, I don’t; no, it’s not; and no, it didn’t. Sorry, I’m just not much of one for blind faith, even in _Nova_. I did not come here to attack Nova, 'GBH, or evolution; I came here to argue that the Dutchman _might be sincere_. (I refer you to **Hello Again’s** post). > [@](#): > > … I suspect the OP did not actually watch the program. To do so, I pointed out that _ **the dramatization did not present a rigorous scientific critique of Irreducible Complexity** _. I fail to see how anyone could argue with that proposition. And persist in arguing. And persist. Nova _never_ presents a _rigorous_ critique of _anything_. It introduces scientific concepts to non-scientists. It has never been, nor represented itself as, rigourous scientific education. It’s a nice show, and a good show. I’ve probably been watching it as long as it’s been on the air. I’ve proudly supported its production financially (that you for reminding me to pledge). **I** am not going to undermine its goal by claiming it performs a function that is simply impossible for the medium. In short, I know **Nova** ; **Nova** is a friend of mine. You, John Mace, do a disservice to **Nova**. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/103 "2007-12-01T01:03:07Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] There is only so much time that kids get instruction on evolution. You’d take up too much of it to do that. And then you’d have to train all the teachers on the debunking of ID. Folks, you just have to let it go. The world will get along just fine w/o making every science class into a forum for debunking ID (plus the dozens of other crackpot ideas out there). [/QUOTE] In fact, those who are so hung up on debunking ID in schools are actually furthering the cause of ID. It’s kind of the equivalent of asking a frontrunner for the presidential nomination to answer attacks by some loon who doesn’t even get invited to debates. It just makes the loon look respectable. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/104 "2007-12-01T01:09:38Z")
[QUOTE=garygnu] What we really need is a focus on the philosophy of science for the entire first semester of Freshman science class. Teach kids about what science is and how it works. Tell them about Karl Popper and Thomas Kuhn (and Cohen & Nagel while we’re at it). Talk about falsifiability and reliable knowledge. Talk about how _nothing_ is considered absolute truth. Talk about what questions science can answer, and talk about what questions science can’t answer. Do this _before_ even touching scientific method. The way it is now is like a football team running plays in practice without knowing the rules first. [/QUOTE] But your way is like asking people to study the football rules book when they’ve never seen a game or even a football. The first set of experiments I remember from high school physics, sometime back around the time of Newton, involved learning how to measure, how to observe and write results, how to follow the steps of an experimental protocol, and to a limited extent how to create a hypothesis. How are you going to get a kid to care about falsification if they’ve never created a hypothesis? One good thing about that level of student - their hypothesis gets falsified all the time. Unfortunately how physics is taught usually encourages students to copy a hypothesis from the book, so it will come out right. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/105 "2007-12-01T01:33:04Z")
[QUOTE=j666] No, I don’t. [/quote] Really: > [@](#): > > Nova _never_ presents a _rigorous_ critique of _anything_. It introduces scientific concepts to non-scientists. It has never been, nor represented itself as, rigourous scientific education. You just moved them again. > [@](#): > > It’s a nice show, and a good show. I’ve probably been watching it as long as it’s been on the air. I’ve proudly supported its production financially (that you for reminding me to pledge). **I** am not going to undermine its goal by claiming it performs a function that is simply impossible for the medium. > > In short, I know **Nova** ; **Nova** is a friend of mine. You, John Mace, do a disservice to **Nova**. Pfffft. It was compelling enough that a buddy of mine, sure that ID had merit, watched the show and changed his mind. NOVA isn’t the journal _Nature_ or _Science_ or even _Scientific American_, but that’s an absurd standard to hold a TV show up to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/106 "2007-12-01T01:39:21Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] In fact, those who are so hung up on debunking ID in schools are actually furthering the cause of ID. It’s kind of the equivalent of asking a frontrunner for the presidential nomination to answer attacks by some loon who doesn’t even get invited to debates. It just makes the loon look respectable. [/QUOTE] Exactly. They want to teach “the controversy”. When you got nuthin’, I guess “controversy” is as good as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2007, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/107 "2007-12-01T01:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Exactly. They want to teach “the controversy”. When you got nuthin’, I guess “controversy” is as good as it gets. [/QUOTE] Furthermore, there is no controversy in scientific circles. It’s a controversy invented by ID proponents. Scientists are not arguing about evolution. They may be arguing about relatively minor details (e.g., punctuated equilibrium vs. gradual change), but not the overall concept. And disagreement about details is how science works – it doesn’t mean, as IDers claim, that the theory is in deep trouble. IDers want to introduce a debate where there isn’t any. “Teach the controversy”? There is none. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/108 "2007-12-04T01:21:50Z")
[QUOTE=j666] I get all that, I really do. My only point was that I do see how some one first exposed to the idea **could possibly** not be completely convinced the argument is spurious **by the dramatization**. [/QUOTE] When the arguement for irreducible complexity rests on particular examples that can be shown to be reducibly complex, I’d have to say that demonstrating reducibility is about as good as you can hope for. I don’t think there’s some general proof of reducibility out there, so I have to say the program did a pretty good job of showing that the current examples of “irreducible” complexity are not. I can also see how someone who believes in ID might not be convinced, but I don’t think they’re going to be convinced anyway. ID almost always comes with the faith of someone who thinks they know who the “Designer” is. ---
**Author:** ![aptronym](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@aptronym](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aptronym)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/109 "2007-12-04T02:28:58Z")
If I were a science teacher I would devote an entire day to studying all the peer-reviewed scientific literature on Intelligent Design. I’d start off by pointing out the importance of peer review and fixed formats, and perhaps throw in a little bit about falsifiability of hypotheses. I would then force the students to sit in absolute silence for the rest of the period while I presented all the articles (zero), ending with, “Any questions?” I think that would illustrate the point very nicely. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/110 "2007-12-04T02:44:50Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] Furthermore, there is no controversy in scientific circles. It’s a controversy invented by ID proponents. [/QUOTE] Just to be clear, that is exactly why I put “the controversy” in quotes. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/111 "2007-12-04T11:03:16Z")
[QUOTE=aptronym] If I were a science teacher I would devote an entire day to studying all the peer-reviewed scientific literature on Intelligent Design. I’d start off by pointing out the importance of peer review and fixed formats, and perhaps throw in a little bit about falsifiability of hypotheses. I would then force the students to sit in absolute silence for the rest of the period while I presented all the articles (zero), ending with, “Any questions?” I think that would illustrate the point very nicely. [/QUOTE] Whilst I appreciate your good intentions, if I were a creationist I would reply “Here we have a so-called science teacher who makes his class sit in silence for most of a day because he does not understand the theory of Intelligent Design.” :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/112 "2007-12-04T16:13:29Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Whilst I appreciate your good intentions, if I were a creationist I would reply “Here we have a so-called science teacher who makes his class sit in silence for most of a day because he does not understand the theory of Intelligent Design.” :eek: [/QUOTE] There’s a theory of intelligent design? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425/113 "2007-12-04T16:21:17Z")
[QUOTE=aptronym] If I were a science teacher I would devote an entire day to studying all the peer-reviewed scientific literature on Intelligent Design. I’d start off by pointing out the importance of peer review and fixed formats, and perhaps throw in a little bit about falsifiability of hypotheses. I would then force the students to sit in absolute silence for the rest of the period while I presented all the articles (zero), ending with, “Any questions?” I think that would illustrate the point very nicely. [/QUOTE] While that might make you feel good as you “stick it” to the creationists in the audience, I doubt it would sway a single person. People who rely on the Bible for their world-view, and think it’s incompatible with evolution aren’t going to give a flying frack about “peer review”. Making students sit “in absolute silence” in a room with nothing being presented is pretty cruel. You’d just make enemies of most of the students, creationists or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-be-teaching-id-in-science-class/427425.md?page=5)