# Shouldn't we transition to calling countries by their names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 23, 2018, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272 "2018-01-23T04:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/21 "2018-01-23T16:27:38Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > This is not necessary. > > Are you offended by the Chinese calling America Měiguó or England Yīngguó? > Are you insulted by the French referring to les États-Unis and Royaume-Uni? > > There are some exceptions, where the local people object to names that were given by colonial rulers and prefer local names to be used instead, but in general everyone should use country and city names in their own language. I agree this sort of suggestion is almost always made by or about English speakers. The people making would never think to impose it in any other language or only pretend they’re also proposing that after the double standard is pointed out. But still virtually nobody in countries where the native language isn’t English ever suggests this. The more interesting discussion might be _why_ this idea is sometimes proposed for English but virtually never for any other language. It’s true that certain foreign place names which never had a name peculiar to different languages have changed everywhere due to preference of the country in which they are located. But many place name changes in Far East are purely transliteration changes. For example the name of the No.2 city in the ROK has not really changed. It’s the same underlying Chinese characters and same sounds for them in the Korean alphabet as always, just one Korean letter formerly transliterated ‘P’ is now transliterated as ‘B’ so Busan not Pusan. Similarly with the vast majority of the many Chinese place names which use different Latin letters now. In only a few cases did the Communists change the actual (Chinese character) names of those places. For example the name of the capital hasn’t changed and English speakers didn’t use a ‘different’ one from what Chinese did, the same two characters are just transliterated Beijing rather than Peking, arguably increasing accuracy in that case. But in general no simple transliteration system for Chinese (or Korean) words is always more accurate in English. And of course Chinese themselves pronounce (as opposed to writing) the same word fairly differently in dialects. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/22 "2018-01-23T16:40:00Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Straya, mate. Don’t you mean “Straya, _mite_”? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/23 "2018-01-23T16:47:33Z")
I personally look forward to when [Alba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba) and [Aotearea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aotearoa) are known by the names given by their native peoples. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/24 "2018-01-23T16:55:40Z")
They don’t call it that, but I like Albion for England. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/25 "2018-01-23T17:02:38Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > And who gets to pick what we call Antarctica? [The natives, of course!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S95-0tWayQc) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/26 "2018-01-23T17:10:56Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Myanmar for Burma. This is a case where “[it’s complicated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Myanmar).” ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/27 "2018-01-23T17:32:43Z")
Most of these countries don’t WANT you to pronounce it their way. A few extractions exist - Côte d’Ivoire and Timor-Leste. Czechia is an alternative name that some people use but didn’t catch on ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/28 "2018-01-23T17:41:12Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Most of these countries don’t WANT you to pronounce it their way. A few extractions exist - Côte d’Ivoire and Timor-Leste. Czechia is an alternative name that some people use but didn’t catch on It’s still pretty early on Czechia (wasn’t it only made official like a year or two ago?). I wouldn’t be surprised if it does catch on. (And it’s not an endonym, anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/29 "2018-01-23T17:49:44Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > That’s where you’re confused. You’re speaking English, and the English word for the country between Sweden and Russia is “Finland.” Its two neighbors are “Sweden” and “Russsia”\* in English. > > Objecting to it is like objecting to the fact we call an automobile a “car” while the French call it a “voiture.” You wouldn’t insist that we have to call a Peugeot a voiture because that’s what they call it in France, would you? > \*Nowadays. Used to be the Soviet Union. Or in the original: CCCP As in: Сою́з Сове́тских Социалисти́ческих Респу́блик (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) Nowadays I see those letters popping up with some straight C student reports, with a Passing grade in an elective, at some schools I assist. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/30 "2018-01-23T18:22:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When I say, “by their names”, I mean the names they use to refer to themselves. Not necessarily the full official name, as those tend to be a mouthful, and often full of crap. So what would that be for the USA? “America”? “The US”? “the States”? “United States”? By the way, the Japanese people hardly ever refer to the country as “Nippon.” “Nihon” is much more common. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/31 "2018-01-23T20:27:09Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > 1. So what would that be for the USA? “America”? “The US”? “the States”? “United States”? > > 2. By the way, the Japanese people hardly ever refer to the country as “Nippon.” “Nihon” is much more common. 1. True, and that choice has its own issues of supposed chauvinism depending which option. ‘America’ is a no-no to some people to refer to the US, and even ‘United States’ could be viewed as presumptuous (given that the official name of Mexico for example could also be shortened to ‘United [Mexican] States’, etc). The ‘pronounce it their way’ movement seems to be motivated by fighting some kind of chauvinism supposedly demonstrated by having uniquely English words for foreign places. But unfortunately some abbreviated versions of the name of the country often called ‘US’ have their own issues to the hypersensitive in this regard. 2. This link says Nihon wins by 2/3’s v 1/3 in a recent (as of 2014) survey. As the link lists, a number of well known Japanese companies/organizations render their names Nippon X, others Nihon X. It’s also surprising to me as many as 1/3 of ordinary people would say Nippon is correct. As the link says, that version has precedence but I wonder if all those answering that it’s more correct actually say it that way. But again with Sinic words one might tale the position that the Chinese characters _are_ the word, therefore that word is _is_ 日本, and that it’s still the same word whether you pronounce it Nihon or Nippon, or Ilbon (as Koreans almost always do\*), etc. > **[Nippon or Nihon? No consensus on the Japanese pronunciation of “Japan”](https://soranews24.com/2014/02/11/nippon-or-nihon-no-consensus-on-the-japanese-pronunciation-of-japan/)** > > As any student of Japanese will tell you, its use of Chinese characters known as kanji can be a nightmare at times. And although they can be really useful at deducing the meaning of complex words, they give little in the way of clues as to how one... \*there has been some movement in S. Korean usage toward pronouncing Sinic proper nouns applying to other countries the way the Chinese, Japanese, etc. do rather than using the Korean pronunciations of the Chinese characters of those proper nouns, people’s name or place names. So for example nowadays S Korean media doesn’t write the capital of China as 북경 in the Korean alphabet, which is the Korean pronunciation of the characters 北京, ‘Bukgyeong’, but rather as 베이징 to mimic the Mandarin pronunciation of those characters, ‘Be-i-jing’. Ordinary people though (especially older) might say Bukgyeong. Anyway this hasn’t extended to the name of Japan, which is still almost always written Ilbon (=일본=日本) in the Korean alphabet. I would personally say Ilbon and Nihon/Nippon are ‘the same word’, similarly for loads of common nouns that are the same Chinese characters pronounced differently in Korean, Japanese and/or Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/32 "2018-01-23T21:01:52Z")
Funny, I have the polar opposite attitude. When I studied in Budapest, many native English speakers pronounced the city “Budapesht,” since in Hungarian it’s pronounced with the SH sound. I myself found that reasoning silly since we were speaking in English, so we’d might as well use English pronunciations. Now if I were saying a whole sentence in Hungarian, THEN it would have made sense to me to pronounce the city as “Budapesht.” Actually, upon further reflection, I see your point. I remember when I lived in Budapest I would orient myself according to subway stops, trolley stops, etc. So it confused me when someone would mention “Deak Square” or “Margaret Bridge” since the pre-recorded voice would call the places “Deak Ter” and “Margit Hid.” Though upon even FURTHER reflection, can you imagine how hard it would be to learn the words for things like square and bridge in dozens of languages? ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/33 "2018-01-23T21:28:09Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I don’t feel strongly one way or the other. I am somewhat confused at the topic, though, because I had thought that the increasing practice was to use “native” placenames. Beijing for Peking. Myanmar for Burma. Any number of names other than the ones I learned for Indian cities. Just last night, there was a clue on _Jeopardy!_ for which the contestant said “What is Byelorussia?” They counted him wrong, because they wanted “Belarus.” I felt for the guy. He looked to be about my age, and back in grade school, when I was learning European geography, “Byelorussia” was what they taught us! ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/34 "2018-01-23T21:52:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s still pretty early on Czechia (wasn’t it only made official like a year or two ago?). I wouldn’t be surprised if it does catch on. (And it’s not an endonym, anyway.) Well, it’s not an exonym in the sense that a foreign entity didn’t name them, but the Czech government requested it. It’s not really an endonym either, as in it’s not a variant of “Česko” or “Česká republika.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/35 "2018-01-24T21:49:01Z")
Well, whether or not it’s a good idea, the Doper community has certainly come through with interesting facts. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/36 "2018-01-24T21:54:38Z")
I think we should stop trying to transition. I’m tired of people getting all pretentious and using the name from another language. The name of a country is no different from any other word, use the name in our language. How many countries pronounce United States, of, and/or America the way we do? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/37 "2018-01-24T21:58:52Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I also find the pronunciation of non-English words by English speakers curious. For example, someone will be talking standard American English, then when they hit a Spanish word or placename, they roll their "r"s like crazy. [SNL noticed this in 1990](http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/enchilada/n9970?snl=1). ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/38 "2018-01-24T22:00:08Z")
Don’t most country names basically come down to just “us guys” in their native language? I’m pretty sure I read that in a Dope column many years ago. So it would basically be \*wrong \*for foreigners to call them by that. ETA: here it is [Why are there so many names for Germany, AKA Deutschland, Allemagne, etc.? - The Straight Dope](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/443/why-are-there-so-many-names-for-germany-aka-deutschland-allemagne-etc/) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/39 "2018-01-24T22:04:21Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Don’t most country names basically come down to just “us guys” in their native language? I’m pretty sure I read that in a Dope column many years ago. So it would basically be \*wrong \*for foreigners to call them by that. That doesn’t sound right to me. Maybe if you go far enough back etymologically, there’s something like that, but all the countries I could think of it generally comes down to “Land of the XXX” where XXX is the name of a peoples/tribe/etc. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272/40 "2018-01-25T02:10:26Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Well, it’s not an exonym in the sense that a foreign entity didn’t name them, but the Czech government requested it. It’s not really an endonym either, as in it’s not a variant of “Česko” or “Česká republika.” Ukraine changed the official transliteration of Kiev to Kyiv in 1995 (not that it’s really caught on), and that always struck me as kind of odd. It would as if the US passed a law saying our official name in Spanish is ‘El Estados Unidos’ instead of ‘Los Estados Unidos’ (which would be consistent with the English usage: ‘The United States _is_…’) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shouldnt-we-transition-to-calling-countries-by-their-names/807272.md?page=3)