# Shove those commandments right up your burning bush you pandering ass! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072 "2004-12-16T01:36:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chotii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Chotii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chotii)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/21 "2004-12-16T05:37:17Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think it’s different than a crucifix. He’s wearing on his official robe- a robe which is used specifically to identify him as an agent of the government acting in an official capacity- actual words which say “Thou Shalt have no other Gods before me…Thou shalt make no graven images…” etc. > > They are, quite literally, _commandments_ about who and how to worship. I couldn’t think of a more obvious example of Establishment if I tried. Except of course that the whole ‘separation of church and state’ is not a law as far as I know. It appeared in a bit of private correspondance between Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist association, to reassure them that the government was not going to be establishing a national denomination. Here is the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States: \*“ **Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof** ; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances.” \* If the judge in question is freely exercising his religion, then what’s the problem? If he’s requiring others to follow it using the power of his position…yeah, there’s a problem. If the judge is sentencing murderers, and happens to reference ‘Thou shalt not commit murder’ which is one of the Ten…but doesn’t mention the bit about graven images…and the law of the land also happens to prohibit murder…what’s the problem? Until somebody in government actually _requires_ me to obey some religious dictate, because it is a religious dictate…I don’t care if some judge happens to be a Christian, a Jew, an Atheist, a Hindu, a practitioner of Voodun, or anything else. If he interprets the law fairly, honestly, and impartially, I don’t care if he has 666 branded on his forehead. Pick your battles, indeed. Next we’ll be requiring everyone in public office to be a sworn atheist. Ooops…that’d be requiring a certain belief system, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/22 "2004-12-16T06:29:23Z")
> [@Chotii](#): > > Until somebody in government actually _requires_ me to obey some religious dictate, because it is a religious dictate…I don’t care if some judge happens to be a Christian, a Jew, an Atheist, a Hindu, a practitioner of Voodun, or anything else. If he interprets the law fairly, honestly, and impartially, I don’t care if he has 666 branded on his forehead. > > Pick your battles, indeed. > > Next we’ll be requiring everyone in public office to be a sworn atheist. Ooops…that’d be requiring a certain belief system, too. There’s been past precedents though of this type of behavior being struck down as violating the Establishment Clause…not so much that the government employee officiates a specific religion, but -endorses- any religion. An argument could be made that by showing off his Commandmentness, that the judge’s ability to rule on whether the law is broken is biased in the sense that the judge may think of his biblical laws first over the country’s secular laws. I can’t dig up an internet cite just yet, but I recall a case where a public school had set aside time for ‘school prayer’. And the school argued that it wasn’t violating the law because the prayer time was nondenominational. But it was ordered to stop sanctioned prayer-time anyway on the grounds that it was an endorsement of religion nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/23 "2004-12-16T06:32:42Z")
> [@Chotii](#): > > Except of course that the whole ‘separation of church and state’ is not a law as far as I know. It appeared in a bit of private correspondance between Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist association, to reassure them that the government was not going to be establishing a national denomination. > > Here is the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States: > > \*“ **Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof** ; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances.” \* . I agree that many people, here and in the general public, incorrectly assume that the establishment clause is a strict statement of seperation of church and state. Or rather, of religion and state. It’s not. But how is this case different from Roy Moore’s case, which has been decided to be unconstitutional? Or, are you disagreeing with that decision as well? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/24 "2004-12-16T07:38:33Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > 700 Club and many other programs are on TV and radio which I find offensive, so I don’t watch or listen to them. Someone with an ass the size of Baltimore in lavender stretch pants is offensive to me, so I don’t look. > > Change the channel, shut it off, avert your gaze-it’s all the same. I don’t give a fat rat’s ass if a judge wears the 10 commandments or the lyrics to the Hokey Pokey on his robes. > > Choose your battles, kids. No way. What’s this guy’s doing is illegal, under current legal precedent. I’m not going to look the other way when a _judge_ is flagrantly defying the law _in his own courtroom._ He doesn’t agree with the law, that’s fine. He wants to change the law, he can work towards that. But if he _breaks_ the law, he needs to be punished. If he’s doing this as a form of civil disobediance, well, I can respect that. But that doesn’t protect him from the consequences of his actions, which in this case, should be his removal from the bench if he persists in wearing the robe. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/25 "2004-12-16T08:45:19Z")
That’s what we have to put up with for the next four years, folks – all the right-wing nutjobs are coming out of the woodwork because they believe that Bush’s re-election (statistically identical to the numbers from 2000, mind you) is a sign that their looney-tunes beliefs are suddenly vindicated. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/26 "2004-12-16T09:23:40Z")
[quote] **John Mace** : I agree that many people, here and in the general public, incorrectly assume that the establishment clause is a strict statement of seperation of church and state. Or rather, of religion and state. It’s not. Care to elaborate, John? That is such a tease. > [@](#): > > Thomas Jefferson: “I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the _Constitution_ from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises.”–Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808 The judge as a private citizen can have the Ten Commandments embroidered on all of his clothing. But when he dons that robe, he is no longer acting as a private citizen. He is acting in an official capacity as an arm of the government. People in his courtroom are there on government business – not for religious instruction. It seems obvious to me that the judge is breaking one of the Ten Commandments when he describes his reasons for wearing the Commandments. If they really do help him to decide what is right and what is wrong, then doesn’t it make more sense to have them written down in front of him so that he can seem them easily? I think he is not being truthful about his motives. “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” Maybe the only cure for the Christian Right will be for government officials outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition to begin to push their agendas. A few robes bearing “bin Laden is the Messiah” might help them to understand why we really don’t want to go there. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/27 "2004-12-16T09:26:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No way. What’s this guy’s doing is illegal, under current legal precedent. I’m not going to look the other way when a _judge_ is flagrantly defying the law _in his own courtroom._ He doesn’t agree with the law, that’s fine. He wants to change the law, he can work towards that. But if he _breaks_ the law, he needs to be punished. If he’s doing this as a form of civil disobediance, well, I can respect that. But that doesn’t protect him from the consequences of his actions, which in this case, should be his removal from the bench if he persists in wearing the robe. Should a blind defendant or plaintiff enter the court of jurist x, then it really doesn’t matter, now does it? _And the judge didn’t look at the 27 8x10 glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one._ Presumably, you have a mind. Use it. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/28 "2004-12-16T12:04:33Z")
Comparison time: what if he had embroidered a snippet of roman law saying “Christians shall be thrown to the lions”. Would that be appropriate attire? ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/29 "2004-12-16T12:33:37Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Should a blind defendant or plaintiff enter the court of jurist x, then it really doesn’t matter, now does it? > > _And the judge didn’t look at the 27 8x10 glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one._ > > Presumably, you have a mind. Use it. What the hell are you talking about? This judge is an attention-whoring loony, and should be fired if he persists with this bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/30 "2004-12-16T12:40:25Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Should a blind defendant or plaintiff enter the court of jurist x, then it really doesn’t matter, now does it? > > _And the judge didn’t look at the 27 8x10 glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one._ > > Presumably, you have a mind. Use it. I tried but I have absolutely no clue what the hell you are talking about? Is there a point there, or just an insult? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/31 "2004-12-16T12:44:14Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Since when is a judge supposed to decide what’s “right and wrong?” I thought they were supposed to enforce the law. I wish you believed that. You actually believe, based on your other posts, that judges SHOULD decide what’s right and wrong, consistent with YOUR understanding of right and wrong, and no one else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/32 "2004-12-16T12:46:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I wish you believed that. You actually believe, based on your other posts, that judges SHOULD decide what’s right and wrong, consistent with YOUR understanding of right and wrong, and no one else’s. Out of curiosity, what’s your opinion on the OP? ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/33 "2004-12-16T13:24:11Z")
Two accused criminals come before his bench. One wears a t-shirt that reads, “Real Men Love Jesus”. The other wears a shirt that says, “Christianity is Stupid” (a la the old Negativland song). I suspect these two hypothetical people would receive starkly different treatment in his courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/34 "2004-12-16T14:00:40Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > 700 Club and many other programs are on TV and radio which I find offensive, so I don’t watch or listen to them. Someone with an ass the size of Baltimore in lavender stretch pants is offensive to me, so I don’t look. > > Change the channel, shut it off, avert your gaze-it’s all the same. I don’t give a fat rat’s ass if a judge wears the 10 commandments or the lyrics to the Hokey Pokey on his robes. > > **Choose your battles, kids**. I bolded the important part, at least as far as this case goes. The reason is that Judge Roy Moore has already said that he plans to use this case as part of his appeal, citing the case of inches v miles (give 'em one and they want t’other). I know that the slippery slope argument is tiresome, but if this sort of crap keeps up we’ll likely have to replace ole lady justice with a crucifix. Having said that I think this guy is an attention whore looking to martyr this particular career in favor of another, but that’s just my opinion. We could let him keep it if he sews on passages from other religions, and maybe some laws too. It’ll be the holy/legal/robey equivalent of a NASCAR outfit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AmericanMaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@AmericanMaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmericanMaid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/35 "2004-12-16T14:04:21Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Should a blind defendant or plaintiff enter the court of jurist x, then it really doesn’t matter, now does it? > > _And the judge didn’t look at the 27 8x10 glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one._ > > Presumably, you have a mind. Use it. If a gay defendant enters the courtroom with this loon it DOES matter. I’m betting it matters to about 57 million Americans (who do have minds). If you don’t care, that’s your prerogative. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/36 "2004-12-16T14:22:57Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I tried but I have absolutely no clue what the hell you are talking about? Is there a point there, or just an insult? It’s a reference to the song, “Alice’s Restaurant,” but I don’t understand what it has to do with the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/37 "2004-12-16T14:28:41Z")
Please come and attaxck me again when I say that outsiders looking to the Chrstian Madness in the USA can see no separation of Chruch and State and can see how Christianity intervenes at all levels of society. Upto the courtooms. I would be dead by now I would have felt all the vicious attacks of SDMB membvers e whenever I say this. Including the attacks on my posts about Lunatic Moore and his “judgements” made in accordance with the Ten Commandments ,like I heard him say himself he did, and like he confirms once more in the article > [@](#): > > Moore said Tuesday he supports McKathan’s decision to wear the Ten Commandments robe. > > “I applaud Judge McKathan. It is time for our judiciary to recognize the moral basis of our law,” Moore said.) Once again: Are the decisons of this judge Moore - done according the Ten Commandments which he declares to be the moral basis of US law - overruled, the cases reopened and judged by an other judge? Because if the answer is no, you still have in your so called “secular” nation people convicted under the reule of the Ten Commandments Law. The USA is not a secular nation as long as Christianity is able to put its seal on all what should be completely secular. Even if such lunatics like Moore and now this one have in the end their cases “overruled” or prevented to further their agenda while in public service, the mere fact that they can come up with such ideas and use them as long as they are officialy in function says enough. The mere fact that they get “elected” to be in that function _because_ of their ideas and actions, says enough. You don’t even have to look at the US presidential election circus to know that the USA is a Christian nation, no matter how you twist and turn it. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/38 "2004-12-16T14:29:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I wish you believed that. You actually believe, based on your other posts, that judges SHOULD decide what’s right and wrong, consistent with YOUR understanding of right and wrong, and no one else’s. Not true. I have never once used the terms “right and wrong” in this respect. I’ve always argued just the opposite, that judges should enforce the Constutution as it is written rather than finding loopholes or creating ridiculous constructions such as “ceremonial deism” out of whole cloth in order to impose a personal religious or moral influence on their decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/39 "2004-12-16T14:31:24Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > We could let him keep it if he sews on passages from other religions I’ve wondered how beloved he would be if the passage embroidered was in Arabic and read “There is no g\_d but Allah and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Prophet of Allah”. In every courthouse I’ve ever been in, [this statue](http://www.co.mohave.az.us/pdo/pubdef_files/Lady%20Justice%202.gif) was present somewhere (warning: link not work-safe according to John Ashcroft as it has a titty showing). Some have argued that “she’s a pagan goddess and therefore she shouldn’t be there neither”, but then some require bibs when they eat fried chicken but we don’t have to pay them heed. She’s not there for any religious purposes because nobody really worships her, but as a visible and personified reminder that 'JUSTICE IS {or should be} BLIND" to all things but guilt and innocence. When a judge wears a robe that has embroidered on it a purely religious message that in his own words helps him decide his cases even though it has next to nothing to do with the law code he enforces, he has not only taken off the Lady’s blindfold but is telling her what she sees. Re: NASCAR- I’m not usually a fan of Bill Maher, but I loved one of his suggestions: that Senators and other politiicans should have to wear the emblems of their biggest campaign and lobby sponsors so that we can remember “Okay, he’s the one who’s owned by tobacco and shipping… and that’s the software deregulation and S&L guy…” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072/40 "2004-12-16T14:38:29Z")
For arguments sake, should male Sikh judges be allowed to wear their turbans on the bench ? Or female muslim judges wear the burka ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shove-those-commandments-right-up-your-burning-bush-you-pandering-ass/280072.md?page=3)