# Showdown! Justice League of America vs. the X-Men **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 23, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242 "2004-11-23T06:03:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/281 "2004-12-03T13:41:19Z")
I have to disagree, Chronos - the original question, then, would be asked and answered by saying “JLA” and then we could have more fun by moving on to other related questions. For example, specific incarnations of both teams that we’ve actually seen. Having given it some thought, I think that the post-Legends Justice League would be able to beat any “real” incarnation of an X-Team. Captain Marvel, GL Guy Gardner, Dr. Fate, Batman, J’onn - etc. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/282 "2004-12-03T13:55:38Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Of course, flexibility isn’t an issue in the Marvel universe, slap “organic” in front of it and you could cover Plastic Man in adamantium and he’d be fine 😛 > > The other thing is that the one doing the back breaking here is the Hulk. I’m not sure what KK’s powers are, but I doubt Hulk level strength is one of them. In terms of fighting blind, Wolvys senses would be able to compensate. He’s done it before. > > I’d have to call it a draw, only due to a complete lack of knowledge of the Karate Kids abilities. Karate Kid has been shown the ability to find the weak part in structures, including armored doors and Daxamites. If memory serves, that includes inertron, DC’s 30th century adamantium equivalent (not 100% sure about that). **However** , Wolverines skeleton isn’t visual (assuming that is a requirement), isn’t obvious, and I’m sure Wolvie isn’t going to let KK take the time necessary to spot any inherent weakness. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/283 "2004-12-03T15:40:54Z")
That’s silly. Hoover Dam may have a weak point, but it would still take more than a human being giving that point a karate chop to bring it tumbling down. I prefer Karnak myself anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/284 "2004-12-03T20:55:47Z")
> [@](#): > > I have to disagree, Chronos - the original question, then, would be asked and answered by saying “JLA” and then we could have more fun by moving on to other related questions. I don’t see how that’s disagreeing. As you say, the original question including Ion and Spectre is boring and trivially answered, so we therefore move on to the related question of “JLA minus those two versus X-Men”. And if I were going to infuse some guy’s skeleton with an unbreakable metal, I’d include some chain linkages or the like at joints, so as to allow flexibility but still prevent dismemberment. But then again, I’m not a mad scientist in the employ of the Canadian special forces (or whoever the heck it is this week who adamantized Wolverine), so who knows what setup he really has? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/285 "2004-12-03T22:02:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t see how that’s disagreeing. As you say, the original question including Ion and Spectre is boring and trivially answered, so we therefore move on to the related question of “JLA minus those two versus X-Men”. > > And if I were going to infuse some guy’s skeleton with an unbreakable metal, I’d include some chain linkages or the like at joints, so as to allow flexibility but still prevent dismemberment. But then again, I’m not a mad scientist in the employ of the Canadian special forces (or whoever the heck it is this week who adamantized Wolverine), so who knows what setup he really has? The Spectre can be excluded on the grounds that Hal wasn’t the Spectre while a member of the League, so we can discard that idea. Removing Kyle as Ion seems arbitrary. We could construct the same sort of overwhelming victory with a team of JLA Mystics, too - shall we discard them as well? It’s like my earlier point - it becomes an exercise of ‘How badly do we handicap the JLA to give the X-Men a chance?’ - and maybe you find that a fun topic, but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/286 "2004-12-04T00:41:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if I were going to infuse some guy’s skeleton with an unbreakable metal, I’d include some chain linkages or the like at joints, so as to allow flexibility but still prevent dismemberment. But then again, I’m not a mad scientist in the employ of the Canadian special forces (or whoever the heck it is this week who adamantized Wolverine), so who knows what setup he really has? Last I knew, Apocalypse is the latest to hook him up with adamantium, so who knows what’s been rigged into him. And Candid, it’s not a matter of how much to handicap the JLA. The standard has been set. No Ion and Spectre. Characters that cannot be beaten are right out. Characters behave as they would normally. That means neither side gets to use some uber strategy for an instant defeat. Nobody has said that the mystics were counted out. Nobody has wanted anyone else counted out. Just the two godlies. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/287 "2004-12-04T00:58:42Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > The Spectre can be excluded on the grounds that Hal wasn’t the Spectre while a member of the League, so we can discard that idea. Removing Kyle as Ion seems arbitrary. We could construct the same sort of overwhelming victory with a team of JLA Mystics, too - shall we discard them as well? > > It’s like my earlier point - it becomes an exercise of ‘How badly do we handicap the JLA to give the X-Men a chance?’ - and maybe you find that a fun topic, but I don’t. So it’s only fun to you if your heroes win? I’m not advocating Ion’s removal but I see the logic behind it as there is no point in even discussing the possibilities if he’s included. Reading your posts, you make it sound like they’'re giving the X-Men their entire roster and disallowing all but two or three of the most underpowered Justice Leaguers while all they’re doing is disallowing a veritable _deus ex machina_ character. I fail to see what’s so offensive in that. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/288 "2004-12-04T13:00:53Z")
> [@](#): > > For edification purposes only, would deranged or demented be any better? ::: Moderator bangs gavel to attract attention :::: **Lochdale,** you’ve been warned once before on this. Calling another poster “rabid” is NOT acceptable in this forum. Calling another poster “deranged” or “demented” would, in fact, be better – it would get you banned. You have been warned once and don’t seem to get it. I’m therefore going to forbit you from further participation in this thread. That means you may NOT post to this thread again. I’m doing my best to be lenient. If you have any questions or concerns, email me. Just so that everyone else is clear: if someone insults you in this forum, proper response is to hit the REPORT BAD POST button (the little [!] exclamation point in the upper right corner. Do NOT respond in kind, that just makes you as bad as the person you’re reporting. This is a case of do NOT hit back, just tell the Moderator. That way, there’s only one offender, and the Moderator knows exactly what to do, without having to track back through four pages to figure out who started it. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/289 "2004-12-04T14:05:14Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Val hands Logan his ass in under a minute. And when Logan gets back up, he does it again. And again. Which means Logan wins eventually: Val (Earth-1) can throw Superboy (Earth-1…the one who blows _suns_ out with his super-breath and casually pushes planets around) across the room. But he can’t actually _hurt_ him. I think the situation is similar with Wolverine–Wolvie can’t lay a claw on Val, but Val can’t damage Wolvie (at least not enough that Wolvie’s healing factor can’t compensate instantly). Given that, after hours of Wolverine charging at Val, Val flinging him head-first into a brick wall, Wolvie lying stunned for a second or two while his healing factor fixes his concussion and then Wolvie charging again, eventually Val (who gets tired) either is a split second slow or just gets too tired to go on and Logan (who _doesn’t_ get tired) wins. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/290 "2004-12-04T14:14:56Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > There are, however, limits to everything including the suspension of one’s disbelief. You can go too far in any medium of fiction and comics are no exception. Uncle Scrooge doesn’t take itself seriously like Batman does or even pretend to be real. Comics still try to base themselves in some sort of reality close to our own. In which case the Carl Barks Uncle $crooge comics come _far_ closer on the whole to reality and took itself far more seriously in many respects that super-hero books do–Barks used to base stories from sources as diverse as history texts and National Geographic articles. Yeah, the characters are drawn as ducks, pigs or dogs, but the stories were generally (Magica De Spell aside) rooted firmly in the history, culture and politics of the real world. (Heh…imagine my surprise when I recently found out that Scrooge villain “Soapy Smith” was based on a real-life swindler of prospectors in the Yukon!) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/291 "2004-12-04T14:22:17Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Has Val ever damaged Inertron, by the by? Yes, ISTR him splitting an inertron box or beam once. Howerver, intertron _can_ be broken–true adamantium can’t–so they’re not analogous. Inertron is just “really, really, tough”. True adamantium is far beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/292 "2004-12-04T20:27:12Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > So it’s only fun to you if your heroes win? I’m not advocating Ion’s removal but I see the logic behind it as there is no point in even discussing the possibilities if he’s included. > > Reading your posts, you make it sound like they’'re giving the X-Men their entire roster and disallowing all but two or three of the most underpowered Justice Leaguers while all they’re doing is disallowing a veritable _deus ex machina_ character. > > I fail to see what’s so offensive in that. The question is : Who’d win? JLA vs. X-Men. Right? Well, the team with the strongest/most potent/most skillful members, if they can be proven to be strongest, etc., wins. That fact is that the JLA has included some virtually omnipotent folks. And it has nothing to do with whether “my heroes win” - I’ve read as many issues of X-Men titles as I have JLA-related titles, I assure you. I like both. But the fact is the JLA has included many folks with vast capabilities - and the best the X-Men can muster is the Phoenix - who’s pretty cool, but got taken out by a fastball special once. So following the notion that we remove Ion and the Spectre - why not Dr. Fate? I think the JLA victory with him around is pretty much a lock, too. Ditto Zatanna. So how certain does the victory have to be before someone peels away another character? What’s the standard? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/293 "2004-12-04T20:31:32Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Which means Logan wins eventually: > > Val (Earth-1) can throw Superboy (Earth-1…the one who blows _suns_ out with his super-breath and casually pushes planets around) across the room. But he can’t actually _hurt_ him. I think the situation is similar with Wolverine–Wolvie can’t lay a claw on Val, but Val can’t damage Wolvie (at least not enough that Wolvie’s healing factor can’t compensate instantly). Given that, after hours of Wolverine charging at Val, Val flinging him head-first into a brick wall, Wolvie lying stunned for a second or two while his healing factor fixes his concussion and then Wolvie charging again, eventually Val (who gets tired) either is a split second slow or just gets too tired to go on and Logan (who _doesn’t_ get tired) wins. You know, I considered this possibility. 😉 I’m still thinking of a Val victory by a spinal cord severance, but if this went on long enough for Val to get tired, he could always fly up a hundred feet or so and take a breather. It is true though that the best way to deal with Wolverine is basically just tying him up such that his claws can’t help him escape. And Batman’s more likely to have the materials to do that than Val. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/294 "2004-12-04T20:33:12Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Yes, ISTR him splitting an inertron box or beam once. Howerver, intertron _can_ be broken–true adamantium can’t–so they’re not analogous. Inertron is just “really, really, tough”. True adamantium is far beyond that. Ah, I thought they were fairly analogous. Still interesting to know, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/295 "2004-12-05T01:54:29Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > You know, I considered this possibility. 😉 I’m still thinking of a Val victory by a spinal cord severance, but if this went on long enough for Val to get tired, he could always fly up a hundred feet or so and take a breather. The problem with a spinal cord severance is that it’s out of character for Val—he’s a Legion member after all and they don’t kill (or intentionally cripple people–he couldn’t be sure which it would do) whereas Wolverine would have no qualms about snuffing Val. So Wolvie only has to get lucky _once_. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/296 "2004-12-05T02:07:51Z")
Of course, if Val knows of Wolvie’s healing factor, he could cripple him, temporarily, without qualms. Separate the right set of vertibrae, claim victory, and move on to his next opponant while Wolvie’s nerves are knitting back together. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/297 "2004-12-05T02:19:23Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > The question is : Who’d win? JLA vs. X-Men. Right? Well, the team with the strongest/most potent/most skillful members, if they can be proven to be strongest, etc., wins. That fact is that the JLA has included some virtually omnipotent folks… > > …So following the notion that we remove Ion and the Spectre - why not Dr. Fate? I think the JLA victory with him around is pretty much a lock, too. Ditto Zatanna. So how certain does the victory have to be before someone peels away another character? What’s the standard? Then the JLA plus Ion wins. Discussion over. Moving on, who would win with the JLA minus Ion? Or Dr. Fate or Zatanna or whoever else you feel makes it a lock. There’s obviously room for different discussions in this thread. > [@Tengu](#): > > Of course, if Val knows of Wolvie’s healing factor, he could cripple him, temporarily, without qualms. Separate the right set of vertibrae, claim victory, and move on to his next opponant while Wolvie’s nerves are knitting back together. Has that ever shown to be possible though? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/298 "2004-12-05T04:08:42Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > The JLA has Superman, Wonder Woman, several Green Lanterns, J’Onn J’Onnz, Then again, so does _Little House on the Prairie._ Well, it has one of him, anyway. What? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/299 "2004-12-05T04:38:08Z")
I haven’t read through this whole thread, but it seems to me the only real chance for the X-Men is their psionics. Xavier, Phoenix, Cable, Nate Grey or Rachel Summers, and Emma Frost would be a tough team for any JLA team of 5 to beat, just because they would be overwhelming with their psionic power. The JLA are more powerful, but with their psionic superiority the X-Men could have the JLA at each other’s throats, using their godlike might to kill each other. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/300 "2004-12-05T05:08:19Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > I haven’t read through this whole thread, but it seems to me the only real chance for the X-Men is their psionics. > > Xavier, Phoenix, Cable, Nate Grey or Rachel Summers, and Emma Frost would be a tough team for any JLA team of 5 to beat, just because they would be overwhelming with their psionic power. > > The JLA are more powerful, but with their psionic superiority the X-Men could have the JLA at each other’s throats, using their godlike might to kill each other. Especially now that Cable no longer has to fight the techno virus thingamajigee any more. He may even be more powerful than Xavier. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242.md?page=16)