# Showdown! Justice League of America vs. the X-Men **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 23, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242 "2004-11-23T06:03:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/321 "2004-12-07T05:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, but think of the effect of suddenly “being a god” on a human. It can’t be easy on the mind. Kyle was actually handling it remarkably well. All things considered, he had incredible control over his powers (in fact, the rest of the JLA was kind of freaked out by how easily he was handling everything), and he was never in danger of snuffing the universe or anything (that I recall). He only gave the powers up because he got creeped out by how non-human he was becoming. It’s conceivable that he could be taken out by a high-level psionic, but I think that people are giving even the X-Psychics a little too much credit in general. Even if Martian Manhunter and Maxima were to randonly dissapear from the JLA ranks as soon as the battle started, it takes time to psionically attack someone, especially when you have to deal with Kryptonians, people with magical helmets, Atlanteans, Amazons, and whatever Kilowog is all at the same time. And on a team with multiple speedsters and a robot capable of freezing you in your tracks, time isn’t really something the X-people have. I’ve been thinking of actual lineups vs. actual lineups, and really, it’s tough, because even the “lesser” JLA lineups are incredibly powerful. Check out the team that took on Doomsday: Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, Maxima, Fire, Ice, Bloodwynd, and Superman. Extreme Justice? Maxima and Captain Atom (and Amazing Man, I guess). Detroit League? J’onn and Zatanna. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/322 "2004-12-07T07:56:45Z")
Y’know, it’s only just now occured to me that there are completely separate characters hanging around the X teams named “Polaris” and “Northstar”. Man, that has to get confusing. Is there a mutant named “Alpha Umi”, too? ---
**Author:** ![Lear\_s\_fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/df788c/32.png) [@Lear\_s\_fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lear_s_fool)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/323 "2004-12-07T08:35:26Z")
> [@shy guy](#): > > Three, actually. That storyline, incidently, seemed to show that Rogue isn’t as uber as she would appear to be. Black Tom had her trapped inside a _tree_ and she couldn’t get out. > . It’s fucking Chuck Austin writing. Chris Claremont had her single handedly tank and alien invasion in X-trem X-men 13. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/324 "2004-12-07T09:48:46Z")
> [@shy guy](#): > > It’s conceivable that he could be taken out by a high-level psionic, but I think that people are giving even the X-Psychics a little too much credit in general. Even if Martian Manhunter and Maxima were to randonly dissapear from the JLA ranks as soon as the battle started, it takes time to psionically attack someone, especially when you have to deal with Kryptonians, people with magical helmets, Atlanteans, Amazons, and whatever Kilowog is all at the same time. And on a team with multiple speedsters and a robot capable of freezing you in your tracks, time isn’t really something the X-people have. > > I’ve been thinking of actual lineups vs. actual lineups, and really, it’s tough, because even the “lesser” JLA lineups are incredibly powerful. Check out the team that took on Doomsday: Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, Maxima, Fire, Ice, Bloodwynd, and Superman. Extreme Justice? Maxima and Captain Atom (and Amazing Man, I guess). Detroit League? J’onn and Zatanna. This is part of the problem that this thread is having. Both sides are assuming that theirs is going to use their powers is strict conjunction right off of the get go to ensure the fastest victory possible. Flash steals everyones speed. Hourman just stops everyone immediately, etc. In that line of thought, Marvel Girl (new Rachael Grey)does whatever it was she did to create a black hole. She survived the first one, so she survives again. Meanwhile the JLA is sucked into oblivion. Polaris just grips everyone by the blood and crushes them all. She’s crazy now, and she’s killed before. No problems there. Iceman sucks all the moisture out of the JLA. Did it to Black Tom. Does it again. These scenarios, however possible they may be, simply aren’t likely. Worse yet, they’re barely in the character of the characters. We should keep this in the realm of what the characters are likely to do within the frame of their respective books. Course, the real problem is that DC constantly creates villains that are too powerful, this forcing a redefinition of the upper limits of a characters powers to levels where the existence of non cosmic powered/godly evildoers becomes extremely unlikely since they would be terribly outmatched. So…more cosmic level villains which means more upper level powers…but that’s a rant for another time. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/325 "2004-12-07T13:42:47Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > What the hell? He’s on two X teams and the Avengers at the same time? Does he have a secondary mutation making it that he no longer requires sleep or something? That’s ridiculous. He’s the best there is at what he does. Selling comic books. > [@](#): > > Then why read \*Elseworlds \*or _What If_? It’s pointless to read about what might have happened in an alternate universe 'cause it didn’t and it won’t. No more pointless in those cases than the “real” in-continuity books. They’re still stories. I like stories. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/326 "2004-12-07T13:52:31Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > Also, remember that the only reason Phoenix wasn’t completely unstoppable was because she was fighting against herself at the same time. And when she stopped fighting herself, she became Dark Phoenix - no longer a member of the X-Men, but a menace to be combatted. > [@](#): > > This is part of the problem that this thread is having. Both sides are assuming that theirs is going to use their powers is strict conjunction right off of the get go to ensure the fastest victory possible. Flash steals everyones speed. Hourman just stops everyone immediately, etc. In that line of thought, Marvel Girl (new Rachael Grey)does whatever it was she did to create a black hole. She survived the first one, so she survives again. Meanwhile the JLA is sucked into oblivion. Polaris just grips everyone by the blood and crushes them all. She’s crazy now, and she’s killed before. No problems there. Iceman sucks all the moisture out of the JLA. Did it to Black Tom. Does it again. See, the Black Hole thing won’t work. Almost every incarnation of the Justice League has a Green Lantern - and the GL Rings are capable of allowing people to “ride through” a Black Hole. Assuming a JLA without a Flash or Superman or Wodner Woman or Captain Marvel (Which isn’t many of the incarnations) Polaris or Iceman might be fast enough for those tricks - which still won’t work on everyone. Plastic Man, for instance, is immune to the first tactic explicitly, and more-likely-than not immune to the second. J’onn is assuredly immune to the second. Et cetera. Aquaman, back in the day, would have been wrecked by the second tactic - but with his new mystic-water hand thingy, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/327 "2004-12-07T13:54:45Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Course, the real problem is that DC constantly creates villains that are too powerful, this forcing a redefinition of the upper limits of a characters powers to levels where the existence of non cosmic powered/godly evildoers becomes extremely unlikely since they would be terribly outmatched. So…more cosmic level villains which means more upper level powers…but that’s a rant for another time. 😉 Marvel does the same thing. Even back when I still followed X-titles, 14-15 years ago, I was lamenting how each new villian was an unstopable monster, and all they did was make the X-s more powerful to stop them. All comic-type stories do the same thing. There are too few new story ideas, especially that work within a heroes pre-defined parameters, so you just up the power of the bad guy and make a way for the good guy to win (usually by upping the heroes ability). Heck, Dragonball has over 300 episodes of nothing but this. Last week’s uber-villian is this week’s cannon fodder. Yu-Gi-Oh had the trump card last week, but now the bad guy trumps Yu-Gi’s trump card so Yu-Gi has a new trump card. Same with Pokemon, Digimon, Shaman King, etc… [Yes, I have kids and have been forced to watch these]. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/328 "2004-12-07T14:02:48Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > No more pointless in those cases than the “real” in-continuity books. They’re still stories. I like stories. And the question of the JLA sans Ion is no more pointless than the “real” question. It’s still a valid hypothetical and by proof of your 70+ posts in this thread, you like hypotheticals. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/329 "2004-12-07T14:24:43Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > And the question of the JLA sans Ion is no more pointless than the “real” question. It’s still a valid hypothetical and by proof of your 70+ posts in this thread, you like hypotheticals. Oh, I like most hypotheticals. I don’t like that hypothetical because it’s very contrived and could lead to more extremely contrived hypotheticals. It’s much more pointless as a result. “What about the entire X-Family versus Blue Beetle and a half-eaten cheese sandwich?” That’s a hypothetical too. Not really an interesting one, I think you’ll agree. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/330 "2004-12-07T14:35:17Z")
It’s no more contrived than two ficitional teams of superpowered spandex wearing humans, demons, and aliens from different universes fighting each other nor is it at all similar to your half-eaten cheese sandwich example. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/331 "2004-12-07T15:08:17Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > It’s no more contrived than two ficitional teams of superpowered spandex wearing humans, demons, and aliens from different universes fighting each other nor is it at all similar to your half-eaten cheese sandwich example. You see, people in our world have these things called “opinions”. Every person has them. Sometimes they differ. This is one of those times. 😉 [FamilyGuy] “Oh, Gerald… I disagree!” _Zoom_ [/FamilyGuy] ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/332 "2004-12-07T16:00:11Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > And when she stopped fighting herself, she became Dark Phoenix - no longer a member of the X-Men, but a menace to be combatted. > > See, the Black Hole thing won’t work. Almost every incarnation of the Justice League has a Green Lantern - and the GL Rings are capable of allowing people to “ride through” a Black Hole. Assuming a JLA without a Flash or Superman or Wodner Woman or Captain Marvel (Which isn’t many of the incarnations) Polaris or Iceman might be fast enough for those tricks - which still won’t work on everyone. Plastic Man, for instance, is immune to the first tactic explicitly, and more-likely-than not immune to the second. J’onn is assuredly immune to the second. Et cetera. Aquaman, back in the day, would have been wrecked by the second tactic - but with his new mystic-water hand thingy, maybe not. Ride through black holes?? It’s a wonder ya’ll have any villains left 😉 I will say I am curious to find out how plastic man could survive a black hole and if J’Onn is bloodless. Not doubting you Candid. Just ig’nant bout them JLA peeps. Anywho, tis not the point. The point is that we should be keeping this within the standards set by the books we read, and not just what strategy would totally “pwn” the other team in five seconds or less. It’s silly and brings little to the discussion. The strategies also seem to involve the other team just standing there and gazing in bewildered bewonderment at the tactics unfolding. And D\_Odds, I know that a lot of stories do the upped power level thing. I watch the same kids shows you do, and [CLINTON] I feel your pain [/CLINTON]. DC just seems to be rife with it. I was on the DC page reading about the Black Flash (not african american, which kinda surprised me 😛 ) and it said that the Flash escaped by running to the end of time :eek: J’Onn has wiped out a planet of white martian telepaths or something like that :eek: and he’s strong as Superman. :eek: Anyways, I’ll just end the hijack now. If I want to discuss this further, I’ll get up mah druthers and post a pit thread 😃 ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/333 "2004-12-07T16:49:58Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Oh, I like most hypotheticals. I don’t like that hypothetical because it’s very contrived and could lead to more extremely contrived hypotheticals. It’s much more pointless as a result. > > “What about the entire X-Family versus Blue Beetle and a half-eaten cheese sandwich?” That’s a hypothetical too. Not really an interesting one, I think you’ll agree. Add Booster Gold, make it a ham and cheese sandwich, and let Giffen write it. I think it would be quite interesting. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/334 "2004-12-07T17:02:41Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Ride through black holes?? It’s a wonder ya’ll have any villains left 😉 > > I will say I am curious to find out how plastic man could survive a black hole and if J’Onn is bloodless. Not doubting you Candid. Just ig’nant bout them JLA peeps. No, I dismissed the black hole one… so when referring to 1st and 2nd I meant the magnetics and ice, respectively. Plas is immune to magnetics, that’s canon. J’onn grew up on Mars where it isn’t what you would call damp and has total control over his own molecules, and probably either doesn’t need much water or can hold on to it really, really well. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/335 "2004-12-07T17:06:38Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Add Booster Gold, make it a ham and cheese sandwich, and let Giffen write it. I think it would be quite interesting. That goes without saying - anytime Beetle and Booster are together, and Giffen’s on the writing chores, it’s interesting. But if you have Booster, do you really need the other ham? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/336 "2004-12-07T23:35:21Z")
> [@](#): > > J’onn grew up on Mars where it isn’t what you would call damp and has total control over his own molecules, and probably either doesn’t need much water or can hold on to it really, really well Didn’t Dr Polaris (Magneto ripoff) use J’onn’s iron rich blood to defeat him? Remember? Back when he owned the JLA singlehandedly with the same powers as Magneto? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/337 "2004-12-08T02:02:26Z")
If the JLA gets to have Ion, then the X-men get to have [Infinity Man](http://home.netcom.com/~rogermw/champions/infinity_man.html). (I don’t **care** that Infinity Man was never part of the X-men. It’s the principle of the thing.) ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/338 "2004-12-08T02:10:55Z")
I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees the absurdity of allowing Ion to stay on the team. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/339 "2004-12-08T02:32:28Z")
Absurdity, nothing. I’m itchin’ to see Infinity Man kick some DC comics character butt! ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242/340 "2004-12-08T03:15:08Z")
He’s an actual character? Shows what I know then… I just assumed he was some uberhero that some slavering fanboy created. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showdown-justice-league-of-america-vs-the-x-men/276242.md?page=18)