# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/181 "2013-01-24T22:36:32Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Grow. Up. Us merely having boobs should not be a distraction for any mature man. Why is that? This attitude, though apparently widely shared, does not seem at all logical. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/182 "2013-01-24T22:49:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Why is that? > > This attitude, though apparently widely shared, does not seem at all logical. Hey, have you considered mining this very thread for evidence contrary to your assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/183 "2013-01-24T22:53:35Z")
People making assertions is not “evidence”. And in any event, I consider the contrary evidence from RL to be overwhelming. Regardless, I was making a more limited point, in saying that there’s no reason to assume that “Us merely having boobs should not be a distraction for any mature man”. This seems like an illogical statement. You can’t just make as if the world is what you would prefer it to be. It is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/184 "2013-01-24T23:02:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You can’t just make as if the world is what you would prefer it to be. It is what it is. And what it is is that 95% of men can get through the day without pissing women off by obviously ogling us and making us uncomfortable. So the other 5% can just fuck right off, or talk to their psychiatrist about changing their meds. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/185 "2013-01-24T23:03:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > People making assertions is not “evidence”. > > And in any event, I consider the contrary evidence from RL to be overwhelming. > > Regardless, I was making a more limited point, in saying that there’s no reason to assume that “Us merely having boobs should not be a distraction for any mature man”. This seems like an illogical statement. > > You can’t just make as if the world is what you would prefer it to be. It is what it is. We expect people to control themselves in public. That isn’t asking too much of the world. If that’s asking too much of certain men who find themselves hopelessly distracted by the opposite sex, we collectively suggest you get your fill at home before venturing out. This isn’t 1950. Women in the workplace and traveling too and fro pretty much any damn where we please in any state of dress this side of legal deserve better than this sophmoric posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/186 "2013-01-24T23:09:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > And what it is is that 95% of men can get through the day without pissing women off by obviously ogling us and making us uncomfortable. So the other 5% can just fuck right off, or talk to their psychiatrist about changing their meds. I was heading here. Is that what it takes? Should we just completely shrug off every last shred of feminine grace and decorum and address gawkers with “What the fuck are you looking at? Back. The. Fuck. Off.” Because we can. We can also stop responding to you repeat offenders, stop giving the time and directions to the bus stop, stop smiling in greeting, and just generally snub every man who gives any hint of a lack of self-control and manners. Every lurker. Every creeper. Every single man who displays even a momentary lapse of judgement. Just frost the lot of you. The rest of you guys who admire and move on: please say hi, drop off paperwork, ask for directions, and generally conduct yourselves as if you are our new best friends, because I don’t think I properly appreciated you before this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/187 "2013-01-24T23:09:49Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > And what it is is that 95% of men can get through the day without pissing women off by obviously ogling us and making us uncomfortable. So the other 5% can just fuck right off, or talk to their psychiatrist about changing their meds. Well that’s tough talk. But AFAICT the other 5% doesn’t intend to take either of your suggestions. Instead, they intend to keep ogling you and making you uncomfortable. But what’s more to the point is that this was not about ogling. It was about distracting. The assertion was made that any mature man should not find boobs distracting. This assertion has no basis. > [@Troppus](#): > > We expect people to control themselves in public. That isn’t asking too much of the world. If that’s asking too much of certain men who find themselves hopelessly distracted by the opposite sex, we collectively suggest you get your fill at home before venturing out. > > This isn’t 1950. Women in the workplace and traveling too and fro pretty much any damn where we please in any state of dress this side of legal deserve better than this sophmoric posturing. Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. People are what they are. Hard to change that. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/188 "2013-01-24T23:16:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You can’t just make as if the world is what you would prefer it to be. It is what it is. Ah, the battle cry of male privilege. “It’s just the way it is! Learn to live with it, sweet-cheeks!” ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/189 "2013-01-24T23:20:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. > > People are what they are. Hard to change that. Yeah? Well, read a self-help book. Because it’s not my job to teach men how to conduct themselves appropriately and address women as though they are human beings and not a means to their sexual satisfaction. Kind of thought we were doing all the clueless offenders posting and lurking in this thread a favor by explaining that their behavior is not only unacceptable, it’s boorish and imprudent. But you keep right on justifying their attitude until HR explains it in writing. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/190 "2013-01-24T23:25:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. I don’t think I even know words that will let me fully express how insane this sentence is. > [@](#): > > Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. > [@](#): > > Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. > [@](#): > > Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. my god its full of stars ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/191 "2013-01-24T23:40:31Z")
I told you, this thread is a riot. _What alien creatures these fe-males be. What moon language they speak, what unfathomable thoughts flit between their ears. How shall we learn their ways? Not by, like, listening to their accounts of their own doings and taking them for their word, oh ho no, clearly, we know better. And, goddamn it, we need scientific studies and statistically significant results before we’ll even consider the possibility of believing their fanciful tales. We know how hysterical they can get._ ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/192 "2013-01-24T23:41:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. Please don’t lump me in with these allegedly puzzled men. I share the same emotions as all the women I know. I may occasionally be puzzled by _why_ a woman is feeling a certain emotion, but believe it or not, there’s an easy way to arrive at an answer in such a case. I’ll leave you to work out what that might be. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/193 "2013-01-25T00:38:52Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is tiresome. I don’t leer at or ogle women’s boobs. Well actually I do ogle and leer at one woman’s boobs, and I get to do a lot more with those. But I’m not doing that to yours, and I’m not responsible through the transitive power of maleness for all those guys who do. And some women (surely no Doper women) are playing a game where they’re putting on a show for some guys, and considering other guys creeps, for looking at exactly the same thing. It’s kind of funny how you complain about women treating men like they’re all alike, and then complain about women _not_ treating men like they’re all alike. You aren’t entitled to a free show from a woman just because you’re a man, not even if the same woman has been flirting with other men. And if you find that women often act like you’re a creep who’s leering at them then I feel pretty safe in saying that there is something about you, personally, that is coming across as creepy. Perhaps they’re picking up on your bitterness about not getting to look down their blouses the way “some guys” do. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/194 "2013-01-25T00:42:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I think she’s referring to a birthmark, not spilled wine. Damn it. I know that port sounded oddly specific, but was too lazy to look up if it referenced something else. Never heard that before. > [@l1I235](#): > > When is the last time a man had this go through their head when looking for basic casual clothes, or workwear? Never really, but then men’s clothing isn’t really designed to show off our package or whatever. Interestingly, now that it occurs to me, these female tops seem specifically designed to show off cleavage because the equivalent men’s shirts never have necklines that plunge anywhere near women’s. That is, excepting a few horrific fashions from the 70s. I am not condemning the plunging neckline, just taking notice that it seems to be the original purpose, though I guess now it is just another look. And before someone attacks me for saying women must be asking for leers by wearing tops designed for women, I am absolutely not saying anything like that. > [@SmellMyWort](#): > > So what is your point relative to the OP? Are you excusing the guys who look too long or can’t put together a coherent sentence because boobs are distracting? Are you suggesting that when women encounter a “looker” they not cover up because boobs are distracting? Are you suggesting that women spare the feelings of the sensitive men in their offices and not adjust/cover/button clothing that may have worked loose or even (gasp) been purposely loosened while not interacting with colleagues for comfort? Are you suggesting that women not wear work attire that could possibly show the slightest curve or bulge? Wow, you are reading in a whole lot that was never said. I did not have an opinion on the OP as I had never noticed women covering up around me ever. I was reading the thread as I was interested in if this was actually a thing at all of if the OP was off his rocker. I only added something to a tangent someone else brought up. > [@](#): > > Your contribution, which began as a response to the foolish suggestion by **Troppus** that boobs “aren’t a big deal,” seems to boil down to: _boobs are distracting, it’s hard to talk to women and not look at their chests because boobs are distracting and it takes 100% of a man’s focus to not look at your distracting boobs so what did you say again._ So when you wonder if maybe you’re expressing yourself poorly, yes, yes you are because every respectful thing you say is followed by “…but boobs are distracting.” OK, you seem to have already known what I was posting about, so where did all those aggressive questions above come from? I added a small point from the point of view of men who do not leer, but do take note. I did not make any sort of suggestion or comment on women’s behavior. But, when pressed for one here, I guess I could say, “It is slightly kinder to men if when in a place where we should not be looking you make it a bit easier on us. No pressure, and we will do our best not to take too much notice regardless.” So far from this thread I am not convinced that women covering up around specific non-leering people happens that much, so I do not think that is a problem (the women certainly do not seem to think so) or that anyone should do anything about it. The ideal response would be something along the lines of, “I will not say thanks for not leering because that is just basic human decency, but sorry if we make things slightly more difficult than they had to be. Women’s clothing is finicky. Didn’t realize it was so distracting to you guys, I will keep it in mind.” > [@](#): > > As long as we’re dealing with everyday work wear the distraction is the guy’s problem. If you (in general) can’t handle it, use email. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > Here is the thing. It taking conscious thought is your problem, not ours. No matter what we are wearing. We don’t want to know its a struggle. I am not going to lay it on you in person, but in a thread where we are talking about it it seems perfectly appropriate. Both you (and several others) seem to be taking the opinion that it is our damn problem if boobs are distracting and you don’t give a rat’s ass. Well, it is our problem, but it is really hypocritical to say you do not care about (an admittedly small) nuisance you cause others when in the same breath condemning others for the nuisance their looking at you wrongly causes you. Seriously, I try to be considerate of people’s feelings whenever possible. That means not ogling women who do not wish it. You could return the kindness even if what we deal with is nowhere near as much of a problem. Sure, I have really no idea how much of a pain dealing with men who stare is, but then again I was reading this thread to try and find out more. What I seem to be learning is that there are a lot of men who are dicks about it. Some of them are unrepentant dicks about it (posting in this thread). Some women are so stressed out by their behavior that they lash out all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/195 "2013-01-25T01:08:31Z")
> [@flight](#): > > Never really, but then men’s clothing isn’t really designed to show off our package or whatever. Interestingly, now that it occurs to me, these female tops seem specifically designed to show off cleavage because the equivalent men’s shirts never have necklines that plunge anywhere near women’s. That is, excepting a few horrific fashions from the 70s. I am not condemning the plunging neckline, just taking notice that it seems to be the original purpose, though I guess now it is just another look. And before someone attacks me for saying women must be asking for leers by wearing tops designed for women, I am absolutely not saying anything like that. > I did not make any sort of suggestion or comment on women’s behavior. Unless you were raised in Victorian times, women’s wear has exposed the collarbone, décolletage, and cleavage since the 20’s. Even the modest 40’s and 50’s housewife dress had a tightly form fitting button-up v-neck and a knee length skirt. Are you 115 years old? No? Then you’ve seen women’s bodies revealed by every single fashion in an every changing array of flattering cuts comfortable to creatures with hips and breasts. And of course men’s pants and shirts are designed to be flattering, this isn’t news. You dress left or right? Your tailor knows, but so do we. You buy your clothing two or three sizes too big? Or to fit your dimensions? If the latter, we have a pretty good idea what shape you are in, what size your biceps, triceps, and shoulders are. We know if you have a beer belly or moobs. We know if your butt and thighs are strong or pudgy. We know if your legs are long, if you wear boxers or briefs, and if you are well endowed, we can easily see that in jeans, khakis, a suit, swimwear, sweatpants, or your Stormtrooper costume. But we don’t make you nervous, uncomfortable, fearful, or threatened by our notice. > [@flight](#): > > I did not make any sort of suggestion or comment on women’s behavior. Yeah, you unrepentantly volunteered the fact that you asked a woman to button her blouse because you couldn’t control yourself. > [@flight](#): > > … I guess I could say, “It is slightly kinder to men if when in a place where we should not be looking you make it a bit easier on us. No pressure, and we will do our best not to take too much notice regardless.” No. > [@flight](#): > > The ideal response would be something along the lines of, “I will not say thanks for not leering because that is just basic human decency, but sorry if we make things slightly more difficult than they had to be. Women’s clothing is finicky. Didn’t realize it was so distracting to you guys, I will keep it in mind.” No. > [@flight](#): > > Sure, I have really no idea how much of a pain dealing with men who stare is, but then again I was reading this thread to try and find out more. What I seem to be learning is that there are a lot of men who are dicks about it. Some of them are unrepentant dicks about it (posting in this thread). Some women are so stressed out by their behavior that they lash out all over the place. Nope. Re-read it. Every single woman has said it’s no big deal if men notice, glance, look. But the creepers who repeatedly ogle us, make excuses to get in our paths or hover, the guys who deliberately intimidate us by following us, aggressively staring, or otherwise forcing us into a nervous, uncomfortable posture until we escape are worthy of nothing but scorn and derision. Look. At. Porn. before you leave the house and inflict your ridiculously outdated Puritanical unsocialized pre-pubescent lust on the women you encounter. They are mammary glands, half the fucking population sports 'em. Tits don’t hold the secret to life but if you stare long and hard enough the secret to your celibacy will be revealed in short order. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/196 "2013-01-25T01:10:11Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > It’s kind of funny how you complain about women treating men like they’re all alike, and then complain about women _not_ treating men like they’re all alike. You aren’t entitled to a free show from a woman just because you’re a man, not even if the same woman has been flirting with other men. And if you find that women often act like you’re a creep who’s leering at them then I feel pretty safe in saying that there is something about you, personally, that is coming across as creepy. Perhaps they’re picking up on your bitterness about not getting to look down their blouses the way “some guys” do. I don’t know where I’m complaining about women not treating all men alike. And I have no bitterness, I’m not looking for free shows, and women don’t act like I’m leering at them all the time. The frequency of that is based on how well I dress or much money they think I have. The better I dress, the more money they think I have, the more cleavage I’ll see. I’m sensing a lot of bitterness from you because I don’t even care what’s in your shirt. Get over yourself. Now what we have here is a thread full of women telling men that we know nothing about them and shouldn’t presume to, but at the same time you know all about men and what we think about you and what doesn’t distract us. And even though 95% of men aren’t ogling you, you can’t get through a day without it happening to you. And even though none of you have ever seen me, you believe you know how I look at women. This is a very enlightening thread. Or it would be if I hadn’t been on earth for a long time and encountered these attitudes many times before. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/197 "2013-01-25T01:30:24Z")
I definitly do not stare at women at least since '97, but I believe that laws criminalizing such behavior are an extreme attack on our freedom. Usually obnoxious behavior is not the same as a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/198 "2013-01-25T02:02:50Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I definitly do not stare at women at least since '97, but I believe that laws criminalizing such behavior are an extreme attack on our freedom. > > Usually obnoxious behavior is not the same as a crime. Where in the hell did this come from? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/199 "2013-01-25T02:08:55Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Where in the hell did this come from? The 'borg’s CPU is malfunctioning. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/200 "2013-01-25T02:09:27Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Where in the hell did this come from? He’s not with us. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=11)