# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/201 "2013-01-25T02:11:09Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Where in the hell did this come from? A law is a law – thus I do not stare at women. Nevertheless disagreeing with the law is not a crime. ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/202 "2013-01-25T02:12:53Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > A law is a law – thus I do not stare at women. Nevertheless disagreeing with the law is not a crime. Where is this a law? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/203 "2013-01-25T02:17:01Z")
> [@l1I235](#): > > Where is this a law? I follow work regulations well. I have been involved **hostile learning envirement cases** , but not as the accused in either of them. I do not stare at anyone even outside my work – that is beneeth my dignity. I used to visit strip clubs – does that count as an exception? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/204 "2013-01-25T02:17:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t know where I’m complaining about women not treating all men alike. I quoted you doing it in my last post, and you’ve been doing this “Women like it when SOME men check them out, but not when OTHER men do it! It’s so unfair!” routine throughout the thread: > [@TriPolar](#): > > Isn’t that really it? You want some guys checking you out, but not others? > [@TriPolar](#): > > But I know that in some cases, women are selectively covering up based on their opinion of the guy. I’ve walked into an office where a woman suddenly becomes modest because of my presence, but she didn’t have any problem with the young new hire already there. And sometimes we get the ‘You perv!’ stare which kind of removes all doubt. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Great, now I’m threatening because I’m old. You’ve just confirmed my contention, it is about who’s doing the looking, at least sometimes. > [@TriPolar](#): > > And some women (surely no Doper women) are playing a game where they’re putting on a show for some guys, and considering other guys creeps, for looking at exactly the same thing. …and that brings us up to the present. > [@](#): > > And I have no bitterness, I’m not looking for free shows, and women don’t act like I’m leering at them all the time. Then you may want to change your password, because someone has been using your account here to complain about getting “You perv!” stares and how awful it is that your coworker is fine with the new guy admiring her assets but covers up whenever you come around. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/205 "2013-01-25T02:35:24Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I quoted you doing it in my last post, and you’ve been doing this “Women like it when SOME men check them out, but not when OTHER men do it! It’s so unfair!” routine throughout the thread: > > …and that brings us up to the present. > > Then you may want to change your password, because someone has been using your account here to complain about getting “You perv!” stares and how awful it is that your coworker is fine with the new guy admiring her assets but covers up whenever you come around. That’s okay, I thought you were talking about the post you responded to. And once again, you’re all full of yourself, I didn’t say women only did it when I come around, as I’ve indicated some of them are doing the opposite and that annoys me. Do you think you’re going to get me do something for you because you undo a button and lean over? And I haven’t said it’s unfair, I said it’s the reality, and it is. The problem here is the women who keep denying it happens, followed by saying that it does happen because they’re justified. I don’t care whether you or anyone else does it, but you aren’t all that concerned with the appearances that count if you keep denying it and blaming me for the guys who you don’t like looking at you. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/206 "2013-01-25T03:05:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And once again, you’re all full of yourself, I didn’t say women only did it when I come around, as I’ve indicated some of them are doing the opposite and that annoys me. Do you think you’re going to get me do something for you because you undo a button and lean over? And I haven’t said it’s unfair, I said it’s the reality, and it is. The problem here is the women who keep denying it happens, followed by saying that it does happen because they’re justified. I don’t care whether you or anyone else does it, but you aren’t all that concerned with the appearances that count if you keep denying it and blaming me for the guys who you don’t like looking at you. No. Here’s a handy guide to cleavage in the wild. 1. When we dress, it isn’t to distract, attract, or perplex all the men we work with, all the men on the street, or all the men in the store. We dress to suit ourselves. _If_ a man we like, \*whose company we enjoy \* happens to appreciate our style and our figure: yay us. Both of us. We don’t mind if that guy stands to close to us, hangs around our desk, or flirts. We like that guy. 2. If we aren’t flirting with you, smiling at you, or seeking out your company, get the hell out of our personal space, mind your manners and remember that you have a mother, a daughter, or sister to consider. Wouldn’t want them feeling nervous and threatened? Then don’t do it to women who haven’t invited your attention. If you are a man who has noticed that women cover up in your presence: you are not subtle, you are the creeper. Get away from us; we don’t want you around, and we sure as shit didn’t dress for you. We don’t like you. 3. When creepy, ill-mannered, socially inept men we have no relationship with, nothing in common with, and no reason to converse with attempt to hover and peek down our blouses, we don’t like that. 4. When certain men, such as bosses, pastors, grandfathers and other relatives are around we are likely to be a little more self-conscious and more modest. You know how you shirtless lawn mowing guys will put on a shirt if company shows up? Like that. Exactly like that. 5. We aren’t self-conscious around confident, easy-going, cool guys. It isn’t that we want them to see a little skin, it’s that we are unashamed, and unconcerned. Nothing to hide; nothing to worry about. Those guys know how to behave. Hope this clears things up for you. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/207 "2013-01-25T03:14:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > He’s not with us. Sorry, but he is absolutely with you. I have no idea why you think you somehow make any more sense than he does. You may not be speaking broken English, but he is with you on this _all the way_. Does that make you uncomfortable? Because it should. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/208 "2013-01-25T03:18:16Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Sorry, but he is absolutely with you. I have no idea why you think you somehow make any more sense than he does. You may not be speaking broken English, but you’re saying the same freaking things. As if colander understood anything we say. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/209 "2013-01-25T03:21:29Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > No. > > Here’s a handy guide to cleavage in the wild. > > 1. When we dress, it isn’t to distract, attract, or perplex all the men we work with, all the men on the street, or all the men in the store. We dress to suit ourselves. _If_ a man we like, \*whose company we enjoy \* happens to appreciate our style and our figure: yay us. Both of us. We don’t mind if that guy stands to close to us, hangs around our desk, or flirts. We like that guy. > > 2. If we aren’t flirting with you, smiling at you, or seeking out your company, get the hell out of our personal space, mind your manners and remember that you have a mother, a daughter, or sister to consider. Wouldn’t want them feeling nervous and threatened? Then don’t do it to women who haven’t invited your attention. If you are a man who has noticed that women cover up in your presence: you are not subtle, you are the creeper. Get away from us; we don’t want you around, and we sure as shit didn’t dress for you. We don’t like you. > > 3. When creepy, ill-mannered, socially inept men we have no relationship with, nothing in common with, and no reason to converse with attempt to hover and peek down our blouses, we don’t like that. > > 4. When certain men, such as bosses, pastors, grandfathers and other relatives are around we are likely to be a little more self-conscious and more modest. You know how you shirtless lawn mowing guys will put on a shirt if company shows up? Like that. Exactly like that. > > 5. We aren’t self-conscious around confident, easy-going, cool guys. It isn’t that we want them to see a little skin, it’s that we are unashamed, and unconcerned. Nothing to hide; nothing to worry about. Those guys know how to behave. > > Hope this clears things up for you. Yes it does. Apparently you speak for all women, who all act alike. So for item number 3 tell me how all women determine which men are creepy, ill-mannered, and socially inept. Because it’s happened to me based on my looks by women who didn’t know me, and were treating me just like the way you claim men you don’t like treat you. I usually look like a bum, but I clean up well, and I can definitely tell the difference in the way all kinds of people treat me as a result. And I don’t really care about that, that’s the way people act. What I find fascinating is the constant game of “We’ll never admit it” being played here. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/210 "2013-01-25T03:23:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes it does. Apparently you speak for all women, who all act alike. So for item number 3 tell me how all women determine which men are creepy, ill-mannered, and socially inept. Because it’s happened to me based on my looks by women who didn’t know me, and were treating me just like the way you claim men you don’t like treat you. I usually look like a bum, but I clean up well, and I can definitely tell the difference in the way all kinds of people treat me as a result. And I don’t really care about that, that’s the way people act. What I find fascinating is the constant game of “We’ll never admit it” being played here. Looks like you skipped steps 1 and 2. We like you: come on over. We don’t like you: don’t look down our shirts. We can identify creepy, ill-mannered, and socially inept men because they are the guys we have no relationship with and have shown no interest in and yet they hover and try to look down our shirts. Creepy, ill-mannered, and socially inept men can figure they’ve been spotted when we attempt to protect our assets and block their view. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/211 "2013-01-25T03:27:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes it does. Apparently you speak for all women, who all act alike. So for item number 3 tell me how all women determine which men are creepy, ill-mannered, and socially inept. Because it’s happened to me based on my looks by women who didn’t know me, and were treating me just like the way you claim men you don’t like treat you. I usually look like a bum, but I clean up well, and I can definitely tell the difference in the way all kinds of people treat me as a result. And I don’t really care about that, that’s the way people act. What I find fascinating is the constant game of “We’ll never admit it” being played here. my favorite part of this post is the part where all women apparently share one consciousness, which we pass around like the gorgons’ eye just to make **Tripolar** alternately nervous and semi-hard ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/212 "2013-01-25T03:30:21Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Looks like you skipped steps 1 and 2. > > We like you: come on over. > We don’t like you: don’t look down our shirts. Yes, but WHY don’t you like me, random person on the internet I’ve never met in real life? WWWWWHYYYYYYYEEEEEE?! 😃 Maybe it’s because you “usually look like a bum”. Maybe you stare too long. Maybe you smell funny. Maybe your pheromones are subconsciously signalling me that we’d have genetically mutated babies if we bred. Maybe I’m just trying to get my damn paperwork done, and you’re distracting me. Maybe your Moon is in Virgo and it’s bumming my chakras. How should we know? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/213 "2013-01-25T03:34:52Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes, but WHY don’t you like me, random person on the internet I’ve never met in real life? WWWWWHYYYYYYYEEEEEE?! 😃 > > Maybe it’s because you “usually look like a bum”. So you do judge men by their appearance. Thank you for admitting it. Now why is it wrong for men to judge women by their appearance? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/214 "2013-01-25T03:36:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So you do judge men by their appearance. Thank you for admitting it. Now why is it wrong for men to judge women by their appearance? I no longer even know what we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/215 "2013-01-25T03:41:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And once again, you’re all full of yourself, I didn’t say women only did it when I come around Uh, I didn’t say you said that women _only_ did it when you come around. I’m sure the women you know also do their best to cover up in the presence of other men who make them uncomfortable. Or sometimes they’re covering up because they’re _cold_, or just feeling fidgety. There are all kinds of reasons a woman might adjust her clothing. > [@](#): > > Do you think you’re going to get me do something for you because you undo a button and lean over? And I haven’t said it’s unfair, I said it’s the reality, and it is. The problem here is the women who keep denying it happens, followed by saying that it does happen because they’re justified. I don’t care whether you or anyone else does it, but you aren’t all that concerned with the appearances that count if you keep denying it and blaming me for the guys who you don’t like looking at you. Gosh, a whole paragraph about my chest from the guy who just claimed he wasn’t interested in it. :rolleyes: I don’t think anyone here is blaming you for other guys they don’t like looking at them. Speaking for myself here, I’m blaming you for your actual posts in this thread, like this one ([#98](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15925556#post15925556)) where you called women assholes for adjusting their own clothing and complained that women dare to base their behavior around a man on their opinion of that particular man. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/216 "2013-01-25T03:42:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So you do judge men by their appearance. Thank you for admitting it. Now why is it wrong for men to judge women by their appearance? Judge all you like, just stay away from my desk. I don’t give a damn what you think of me or my fashion choices. OP asked, we answered. We cover up if we don’t want your attention. ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/217 "2013-01-25T03:49:30Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > No. > > Here’s a handy guide to cleavage in the wild. > > 1. When we dress, it isn’t to distract, attract, or perplex all the men we work with, all the men on the street, or all the men in the store. We dress to suit ourselves. _If_ a man we like, \*whose company we enjoy \* happens to appreciate our style and our figure: yay us. Both of us. We don’t mind if that guy stands to close to us, hangs around our desk, or flirts. We like that guy. > > 2. If we aren’t flirting with you, smiling at you, or seeking out your company, get the hell out of our personal space, mind your manners and remember that you have a mother, a daughter, or sister to consider. Wouldn’t want them feeling nervous and threatened? Then don’t do it to women who haven’t invited your attention. If you are a man who has noticed that women cover up in your presence: you are not subtle, you are the creeper. Get away from us; we don’t want you around, and we sure as shit didn’t dress for you. We don’t like you. > > 3. When creepy, ill-mannered, socially inept men we have no relationship with, nothing in common with, and no reason to converse with attempt to hover and peek down our blouses, we don’t like that. > > 4. When certain men, such as bosses, pastors, grandfathers and other relatives are around we are likely to be a little more self-conscious and more modest. You know how you shirtless lawn mowing guys will put on a shirt if company shows up? Like that. Exactly like that. > > 5. We aren’t self-conscious around confident, easy-going, cool guys. It isn’t that we want them to see a little skin, it’s that we are unashamed, and unconcerned. Nothing to hide; nothing to worry about. Those guys know how to behave. > > Hope this clears things up for you. This should be required reading for everyone the second they hit puberty. And FTR, this most definitely speaks to the feelings of this woman. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/218 "2013-01-25T03:54:50Z")
> [@l1I235](#): > > This should be required reading for everyone the second they hit puberty. > > And FTR, this most definitely speaks to the feelings of this woman. I don’t think most men need to be told; most men have enough empathy for fellow human beings that they can appreciate the differences between men and women while avoiding making people uncomfortable. For the handful of guys in this thread who claim they lack this ability and self control, a list of rules won’t help as well as a pair of blinders. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/219 "2013-01-25T03:58:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Judge all you like, just stay away from my desk. I don’t give a damn what you think of me or my fashion choices. The feeling is mutual. Except the desk part. You can come around my desk, just don’t touch anything. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/220 "2013-01-25T03:59:03Z")
An underlying theme in all of this is a rather common and disturbing one, which is the idea that once a woman has done something that can be interpreted as sexual, her sexuality is basically public property. In this thread, we have an argument that if a woman is wearing a low-cut shirt, it’s somehow nefarious or unfair for her to button up for modesty when she feels the need. As if once cleavage has seen the light of day, every man in the vicinity has a right to his fair share or at least the right to an opinion on how much boob she should be showing. Women’s sexuality as public property is a very classic misogynist meme, and you find it in some nasty places. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=12)