# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/241 "2013-01-25T17:05:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Get over yourself. > > This is just a discussion on a MB. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/242 "2013-01-25T17:17:07Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t and can’t know what it is that you think you “see,” but I’d like to point out to you the fact that _every single woman who has posted to this thread agrees with **Troppus**._ All of them. (Well, except for **Saraya**.) > > You know why? It’s because she’s _right_. I’m not sure if this is true (& not interested enough to check) but even if it is, it needs a couple of qualifiers. 1. The women posting to this thread would tend to be people who have issues along these lines. And this especially applies to the ones who are arguing most vociferously (and thus more prominent in this thread). 2. A woman’s perspective on an issue of this sort will naturally be different than a man’s. In general, trying to prove one’s position from “look how many people agree with me” is not a very strong argument. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/243 "2013-01-25T17:18:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Get over yourself. > > This is just a discussion on a MB. Actually, for what appears to be the vast majority of female posters here, this is our every day lives, our reality. So, no, it isn’t _just_ a discussion on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/244 "2013-01-25T17:20:39Z")
Well that’s part of your problem right there. You need to do a better job of separating out the two. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/245 "2013-01-25T17:22:02Z")
Yes, that’s my problem-- not the men in my professional life literally telling me no one respects me because of my (completely covered) breasts. You caught me. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/246 "2013-01-25T17:22:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > 1. A woman’s perspective on an issue of this sort will naturally be different than a man’s. When you are trying to decide how to behave so as to not make women uncomfortable, maybe the women’s perspective might be a useful thing for you to be able to understand. Of course, if you don’t particularly mind making women uncomfortable wherever you go, then hey, feel free to ignore what they say. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/247 "2013-01-25T17:26:25Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Yes, that’s my problem-- not the men in my professional life literally telling me no one respects me because of my (completely covered) breasts. You caught me. I was talking about your problems in addressing the issues being discussed here in a rational manner. You could have any number of other problems IRL. > [@colander](#): > > When you are trying to decide how to behave so as to not make women uncomfortable, maybe the women’s perspective might be a useful thing for you to be able to understand. I am not trying to decide that. Although frankly a woman’s perspective is helpful for this discussion too. But it’s not the only perspective that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/248 "2013-01-25T17:46:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Although frankly a woman’s perspective is helpful for this discussion too. But it’s not the only perspective that counts. Go ahead, take count. The majority of males posting to this thread have advised discretion, decorum, and professional behavior. The entitled gawkers are outnumbered on both sides. But you are free to continue to defend and support your outdated sexist ideas. Thing is, your perspective has zero bearing on how we will dress, how often we adjust our clothing for comfort or to avoid prying eyes, or when we decide to file a formal complaint. We base those decisions on the dress code, the fashions we are comfortable in, the weather, and the behavior of men who willfully make us uncomfortable. The only value of the gawker’s perspective is to remind us that ill-mannered, entitled men lurk around us, and we need to take extra precaution to spot them and avoid interacting with them. So… thanks for that, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/249 "2013-01-25T17:47:41Z")
I have to say I’ve only read the last page of this thread. (Mainly because I was curious as to what the hell is keeping this conversation going for so long.) I used to be a touchy feely kind of person (not in a creepy way) when I was a young, attractive 20-something year old. An innocent hand on the shoulder or the arm could be done with impunity back in those days. As I got older and not as handsome as I used to be, I quickly learned that women weren’t always all that cool with me touching them like that anymore. I also quickly learned to adopt a hands off policy. I understood the logic behind it all and I have total respect for a woman’s personal space, but I have to admit it was a little depressing at first. I’m over it now but I did go through a phase of learning boundaries. All that said, I _still_ haven’t noticed women covering up their cleavage when I walk in the room. So there’s that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/250 "2013-01-25T17:51:58Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > But you are free to continue to defend and support your outdated sexist ideas. Can you give an example of an “outdated sexist idea” that I’ve defended? Try to limit this to things I’ve actually said versus things that are in your head, if you can. Quotes would be helpfull. > [@](#): > > Thing is, your perspective has zero bearing on how we will dress, how often we adjust our clothing for comfort or to avoid prying eyes, or when we decide to file a formal complaint. We base those decisions on the dress code, the fashions we are comfortable in, the weather, and the behavior of men who willfully make us uncomfortable. Do what you want. [Incongruous thing about your attitude is that the gawkers are probably the ones who enjoy it the most, while you seem to think this is a declaration of freedom. But no difference. It’s not important.] ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/251 "2013-01-25T18:07:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you give an example of an “outdated sexist idea” that I’ve defended? > > Try to limit this to things I’ve actually said versus things that are in your head, if you can. Quotes would be helpfull. This: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Regardless, I was making a more limited point, in saying that there’s no reason to assume that “Us merely having boobs should not be a distraction for any mature man”. This seems like an illogical statement. The _majority_ of men posting to this thread have claimed they are quite capable of regarding breasts as ordinary, if mildly enjoyable, workaday artifacts. And this: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You can’t just make as if the world is what you would prefer it to be. It is what it is. We certainly can, and have made terrific strides towards gaining equality and respect, and we shall continue to do so despite a handful of boneheaded, horny men who can’t control their impulses to hover or gawk at women in an inappropriate manner. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Do what you want. > > [Incongruous thing about your attitude is that the gawkers are probably the ones who enjoy it the most, while you seem to think this is a declaration of freedom. But no difference. It’s not important.] We’ll just continue avoiding and shunning the rare clueless guy who makes us uncomfortable. They’ll just have to enjoy it from afar. I think you fancy yourself a devil’s advocate sort who stirs the pot, but you’ve added nothing to the soup. Have you a point to make? Please do so. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/252 "2013-01-25T18:10:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Can you give an example of an “outdated sexist idea” that I’ve defended? > > Try to limit this to things I’ve actually said versus things that are in your head, if you can. Quotes would be helpfull. Here you go: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling. Outdated? Check. Sexist? Check. Your move. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/253 "2013-01-25T18:19:41Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > This: > > And this: Neither of my posts are at all remarkable if you don’t insert your own imagination into them. > [@](#): > > The _majority_ of men posting to this thread have claimed they are quite capable of regarding breasts as ordinary, if mildly enjoyable, workaday artifacts. I disagree with your assertion about the majority of men in this thread. But even if it’s true, it’s obviously not true of an the vast majority of men in the world, most of whom find breasts far more appealing. Look around. > [@](#): > > We certainly can, and have made terrific strides towards gaining equality and respect, and we shall continue to do so despite a handful of boneheaded, horny men who can’t control their impulses to hover or gawk at women in an inappropriate manner. You go girl. > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Outdated? Check. Sexist? Check. Your move. I gather that you disagree with that assertion. But it’s not outdated, and is pretty widely accepted that men and women differ significantly emotionally. And it’s backed by quite a lot of fairly modern research, both on the psychological and neurological sides. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/254 "2013-01-25T18:22:06Z")
Indeed. Please share this research that women have emotions that men don’t. I’d love to learn the names of these alien emotions! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/255 "2013-01-25T18:31:51Z")
They’re not completely alien emotions. They are situational. As in “why would she feel this way about that?” and so on. Which is analogous to what we’re discussing here. Which is women projecting what men feel about looking at women based on how women feel about looking at men. Men and women differ in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/256 "2013-01-25T18:34:41Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Indeed. Please share this research that women have emotions that men don’t. I’d love to learn the names of these alien emotions! “flirth:” when you are talking with some hot guy and he says something sexy that makes your nipples go SPROING “cradness:” that feeling you get when you realize your husband’s credit card is maxed out ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/257 "2013-01-25T18:39:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Which is women projecting what men feel about looking at women based on how women feel about looking at men. Men and women differ in this regard. Ah, this is where you got lost. We don’t care what creepers are thinking. We just want them to stay away. Those nosy, unwelcome guys, on the other hand, attempt to ascribe all sorts of feelings based on our clothing choices. Have you considered reading the title of this thread, and perhaps the OP? Or did you skip right over that? > [@GreenElf](#): > > Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? Why do many women wear shirts that show cleavage, then move their hands to cover it up, by moving the shirt up or closing their outer garment, when a man is talking with them? Why not just don’t wear a shirt that shows cleavage in the first place rather than implicating the man of lechery with the adjustments? ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/258 "2013-01-25T18:41:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not sure if this is true (& not interested enough to check) but even if it is, it needs a couple of qualifiers. > > 1. The women posting to this thread would tend to be people who have issues along these lines. And this especially applies to the ones who are arguing most vociferously (and thus more prominent in this thread). > > 2. A woman’s perspective on an issue of this sort will naturally be different than a man’s. > > In general, trying to prove one’s position from “look how many people agree with me” is not a very strong argument. Issues? Do you not get it? This is our life. This is every.damn.day. Yeah, I was walking to catch a train the other day. It was about 20 degrees, so I was bundled up. My only visible skin was my face (I was asking for it, I know). A guy working at the station started loudly saying inappropriate remarks. Or the time I was on the DC metro, in a packed train and also also bundled up, with only my face and hair showing. A guy gave up his seat for me. Such a gentleman right? Well, he used his new perspective to make disgusting sexual remarks to me. In front of his two very young daughters. I told him to stop. He got annoyed, and made his remarks more loud. I told him he should not talk that way in front of his children. He proceeded to go ballistic, calling me a whore, slut, you name it. I said I have a father too, you know. How would he feel if someone talked to his daughters in 15 years the way he was talking to me? He said that was different. :smack: I was going to get off on at the next stop, but they did instead. This is my every damn day life. I am certainly no supermodel. This is just how some pathethic men treat women, since we women are there for no other purpose than their titillation. And these are not even close to my worst stories. The fact anyone would belittle this everyday BS as “issues” just shows how privileged they are. :rolleyes: Note this behavior never happens when I am with a man. Or even a female friend. It only happens when I am alone. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/259 "2013-01-25T18:48:32Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Ah, this is where you got lost. We don’t care what creepers are thinking. We just want them to stay away. > > Those nosy, unwelcome guys, on the other hand, attempt to ascribe all sorts of feelings based on our clothing choices. Have you considered reading the title of this thread, and perhaps the OP? Or did you skip right over that? And here is where you got lost. You are not a spokeswomen for all women in the world, or even in this thread. I don’t care what you are thinking. I did not initially comment on anything you said. I did not comment on the OP, or the title of this thread. (Have you considered that sometimes multi-page threads develop?) My [comment](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15934375&postcount=181) was about another person’s post. What that person said was: > [@](#): > > Grow. Up. Us merely having boobs should not be a distraction for any mature man. I disagree with that specific point. I think boobs can be distracting for quite a lot of mature men. And the notion that this cannot be the case has no logical basis. If you want to say that men should not ogle women, you certainly can. But it can’t be based on the notion that men don’t have a strong attraction to women’s breasts, because that is completely detached from reality. That is pretty much all. The rest is your hangups. > [@l1I235](#): > > Issues? Do you not get it? This is our life. This is every.damn.day. I’m sure that happens all the time, unfortunately. But I don’t see any connection to anything I’ve posted. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/260 "2013-01-25T18:53:04Z")
> [@colander](#): > > “flirth:” when you are talking with some hot guy and he says something sexy that makes your nipples go SPROING > > “cradness:” that feeling you get when you realize your husband’s credit card is maxed out “Menstruated”: when you realize you booked that long-anticipated camping trip during the wrong week of the month. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=14)