# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/261 "2013-01-25T18:55:19Z")
> [@l1I235](#): > > This is my every damn day life. I do not encounter this. I’m not ugly, but I rarely get cornered, only occasionally get catcalls and the like. I do catch grins, compliments, and every now and then a stranger will flirt, but nothing scary about that. Only felt real fear three times in my life, all three times because the men followed me in parking lots. I’ve no reason to complain about general attention from men. But the occasional forward and ill-mannered hovering peeker is tiresome. But there aren’t many men that clueless or foolish at work or out on the loose. Speaking to the collective horndog _you_: The hovering and peeking thing is frequent, but as most of us have said, it’s noticable but forgettable. My only purpose in responding to this discussion was to explain that no, we aren’t inviting your gaze unless we are interested in you. We will deny your access and cut off your vantage points if you make us uncomfortable. But most of the time, clothing adjustments probably aren’t about you. Unless you are our date or perspective date, our clothing choices aren’t about you. ---
**Author:** ![steviep24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@steviep24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steviep24)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/262 "2013-01-25T18:56:43Z")
I’ve been reading though the arguments on this thread earlier and then I went on twitter. #CleavageAppreciationDay was trending. 😛 Anyway, I’m a guy but I’ll have to agree with most of the women on here. It’s about showing respect to others, and if it’s at the work place, professionalism. ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/263 "2013-01-25T18:57:03Z")
The idea, FP, is that for me personally, you get tired of the bullshit. It’s like a war with no end. The war to end myself being seen as a pleasure object, and instead be seen as a person. And buttoning up a bit, or wrapping my sweater a little tighter when a man inappropriately stares is just one more battle in the war. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/264 "2013-01-25T18:58:06Z")
[quote=“Fotheringay-Phipps, post:259, topic:647892”] My [comment](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15934375&postcount=181) was about another person’s post. What that person said was:I disagree with that specific point. I think boobs can be distracting for quite a lot of mature men. And the notion that this cannot be the case has no logical basis. QUOTE] I think this is the point you are really trying to make, correct? We (speaking for the moment for the women in this thread) think that cleavage/breasts should not be a distraction for mature men. You think that it can be. Fine, we have all stated what we each think. The difference appears to be in a connotation we are each applying to “mature”. To me (perhaps all of us posting in this thread from a woman’s perspective), mature means that someone has the mental and emotional maturity to take simple commonplace occurances in stride, without being hung up on them. I am not sure what your connotation of mature is, but certainly, the meaning we are applying is one that reflects an emotional level of maturity, not just age based. There are certainly older men who are not very mature, and thus not able to react to a woman’s cleavage in a discreet manner. To our minds (again if I may speak for the group), this automatically disqualifies them as mature. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/265 "2013-01-25T18:58:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That is pretty much all. The rest is your hangups.I’m sure that happens all the time, unfortunately. But I don’t see any connection to anything I’ve posted. Of course you wouldn’t. You’re a real piece of work. ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/266 "2013-01-25T19:00:10Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I do not encounter this. I’m not ugly, but I rarely get cornered, only occasionally get catcalls and the like. I do catch grins, compliments, and every now and then a stranger will flirt, but nothing scary about that. Only felt real fear three times in my life, all three times because the men followed me in parking lots. I’ve no reason to complain about general attention from men. But the occasional forward and ill-mannered hovering peeker is tiresome. But there aren’t many men that clueless or foolish at work or out on the loose. > > Speaking to the collective horndog _you_: > > The hovering and peeking thing is frequent, but as most of us have said, it’s noticable but forgettable. My only purpose in responding to this discussion was to explain that no, we aren’t inviting your gaze unless we are interested in you. We will deny your access and cut off your vantage points if you make us uncomfortable. But most of the time, clothing adjustments probably aren’t about you. Unless you are our date or perspective date, our clothing choices aren’t about you. I live in NYC, which I admit does not help. Incident number one was in Philadelphia. The other one was in DC. When I lived in smaller towns, I did encounter this less fequently. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/267 "2013-01-25T19:15:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I disagree with your assertion about the majority of men in this thread. But even if it’s true, it’s obviously not true of an the vast majority of men in the world, most of whom find breasts far more appealing. Look around. Speaking as a man that finds breasts appealing, I find that it is not that difficult to ignore my baser instincts and look at a woman’s face when talking to her. Wouldn’t you be a bit put off by a female co-worker leering at your crotch? I know I would. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/268 "2013-01-25T19:17:37Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > The difference appears to be in a connotation we are each applying to “mature”. To me (perhaps all of us posting in this thread from a woman’s perspective), mature means that someone has the mental and emotional maturity to take simple commonplace occurances in stride, without being hung up on them. Finding something distracting does not imply that you’re hung up on them. > [@](#): > > I am not sure what your connotation of mature is, but certainly, the meaning we are applying is one that reflects an emotional level of maturity, not just age based. There are certainly older men who are not very mature, and thus not able to react to a woman’s cleavage in a discreet manner. To our minds (again if I may speak for the group), this automatically disqualifies them as mature. There appears to be some ongoing confusion here. Someone who finds women’s cleavage distracting can also be someone who can “react to a woman’s cleavage in a discreet manner”. It’s just that such a person would find it annoying to one degree or another to have to do this. (ISTR that this was the original point of the whole “distracting” line of thought, though I could be wrong about that.) [Re “maturity”, I think you’re running a risk of creating a No True Scotsman situation if you define it too narrowly. But that may not be relevant here.] > [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > Speaking as a man that finds breasts appealing, I find that it is not that difficult to ignore my baser instincts and look at a woman’s face when talking to her. That’s fine but doesn’t relate to my point. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/269 "2013-01-25T19:22:01Z")
Perhaps it would be illustrative to imagine a guy who is trying to quit smoking or alcohol or whatever, and now finds himself in a situation where these were readily available and on hand. Yeah, he’s not completely helpless and drawn to ingest them, and certainly the right thing for the guy to do would be to avoid them. But he would probably be more comfortable if they weren’t right there in front of him. That’s what I think is meant by “distraction”. That’s what I mean, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/270 "2013-01-25T19:22:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > My [comment](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15934375&postcount=181) was about another person’s post. What that person said was:I disagree with that specific point. I think boobs can be distracting for quite a lot of mature men. And the notion that this cannot be the case has no logical basis. No shit they can be distracting and no shit they are appealing. No one is disputing that. Her point was made in the context of this going on at work, that a mature man should get over it and choose not to be distracted in a professional work environment when women wear anything tighter than a California Raisin costume. You disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/271 "2013-01-25T19:23:53Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > No shit they can be distracting and no shit they are appealing. No one is disputing that. ISTM that a lot of people are disputing that. > [@](#): > > Her point was made in the context of this going on at work, that a mature man should get over it and choose not to be distracted in a professional work environment when women wear anything tighter than a California Raisin costume. You disagree with that? No. ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/272 "2013-01-25T19:27:29Z")
And to clarify the “cornering” has happened perhaps 5 times in my life. General leering and inappropriate remarks? Yeah, pretty much daily if I am alone. If I am not alone, it happens pretty much never. What is truly interesting is when the man (and yes, it is always a man IME) thinks you are alone. They then realize you are not, and then skulk away. ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/273 "2013-01-25T19:36:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Perhaps it would be illustrative to imagine a guy who is trying to quit smoking or alcohol or whatever, and now finds himself in a situation where these were readily available and on hand. Yeah, he’s not completely helpless and drawn to ingest them, and certainly the right thing for the guy to do would be to avoid them. But he would probably be more comfortable if they weren’t right there in front of him. > > That’s what I think is meant by “distraction”. That’s what I mean, anyway. :smack: I just…can’t. The female body is not a drug. You have no rights to leer/comment/whatever at my body. NONE. I own my body. If I want to reveal a bit of my “drug”, I will. It is not an invitation. The only one who has rights when it comes to my body is me, and you infringing on them if you are acting inappropriately. The most horrifying thing to me is not that there are men out there like this…it is how many if them there are. Maybe I encounter them more often because I am in NYC. The second most horrifying thing is that women just got compared to consumable intimate objects, the sort meant for pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/274 "2013-01-25T19:36:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Someone who finds women’s cleavage distracting can also be someone who can “react to a woman’s cleavage in a discreet manner”. It’s just that such a person would find it annoying to one degree or another to have to do this. A) first world problem B) not my problem C) tough shit D) grow up E) all of the above May I suggest E? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/275 "2013-01-25T19:37:43Z")
Calm down. It was just an illustration of what is meant by “distraction”. Or don’t calm down, come to think of it. Whatever you want. ETA: that was to madamoiselle ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/276 "2013-01-25T19:39:25Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > A) first world problem > B) not my problem > C) tough shit > D) grow up > E) all of the above > > May I suggest E? Whatever works for you. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/277 "2013-01-25T19:39:44Z")
> [@l1I235](#): > > The second most horrifying thing is that women just got compared to consumable intimate objects, the sort meant for pleasure. This just reemphasizing **even sven** ’s fantastic point from the last page. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Calm down. She’s just being _hysterical_, amirite? ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/278 "2013-01-25T19:43:40Z")
Am I being _shrill_ yet? Am I, am I?? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/279 "2013-01-25T19:52:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Whatever works for you. What on earth were you expecting with that ridiculous comment? > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Someone who finds women’s cleavage distracting can also be someone who can “react to a woman’s cleavage in a discreet manner”. It’s just that such a person would find it annoying to one degree or another to have to do this. \ “Oh, you poor, poor distractable man. Whatever were we thinking with our buttons and cardigans? Why, we sure never meant to derail your train of thought at work. My goodness, however will we make reparations? Would you like a dollar? Tomorrow I’ll be sure and wear a sweatshirt. No, two! I’ll wear two sweatshirts so poor widdle you can focus on work. I do hope you will forgive me for my trespasses, my wanton ways, and my ample bosom! I don’t know how you men get a thing done what with 52% of the population daring to sprout breasts. Why, last week I wore a v-neck and these things caused a car wreck! People coulda died! I’m a real hazard, I tell ya, I should just stay at home to cook and clean.”\ ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/280 "2013-01-25T19:56:18Z")
> [@l1I235](#): > > The second most horrifying thing is that women just got compared to consumable \*intimate \*objects, the sort meant for pleasure. That was supposed to be inanimate, sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=15)