# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/281 "2013-01-25T20:00:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that a lot of people are disputing that.No. No one is disputing that they can be distracting, _in general_. But if you’re at work (or really pretty much everywhere but especially at work) and you allow a normally dressed coworker’s/woman’s body to distract you to the point of annoyance, the problem is with you, not her. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/282 "2013-01-25T20:05:08Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > No one is disputing that they can be distracting, _in general_. But if you’re at work (or really pretty much everywhere but especially at work) and you allow a normally dressed coworker’s/woman’s body to distract you to the point of annoyance, the problem is with you, not her. And **FP** , our sympathy lies with her, not you. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/283 "2013-01-25T20:28:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > 1. The women posting to this thread would tend to be people who have issues along these lines. And this especially applies to the ones who are arguing most vociferously (and thus more prominent in this thread). What is the significance of this “qualifier” and how does it dispute the general consensus, if at all\*? In just about any thread on a given topic, you’ll experience varying degrees of sensitivity and conviction, so this observation certainly isn’t unique. \*_After all, the OP asked a specific group of people a question and received answers from the available audience. If you don’t speak up, you don’t really have a voice (in this specific context)…so yes, anyone who has any type of motivated interest, has spoken up or taken a read (based on views)._ > [@](#): > > 1. A woman’s perspective on an issue of this sort will naturally be different than a man’s. Perspective can be different for anyone, but it only begs the question; why do you think perspective _matters_ when its her body? Or better yet, how do you make the honest distinction between “perspective” and “justification” on such a topic, without treading the line that is sexism? Personally, even if I _could_, I just don’t feel it would be worth it, as there is nothing to gain and little worth defending, unless you’re operating from extremes. In reading a few of your responses, I’ve seen you use the idea of “logic” as a base to issue a counterpoint, but IMO, I don’t think this is a traditionally objective discussion. By that, I mean there are no real “facts” to operate as a launchpad to serve the unpopular side of this discussion. This is more a subjective sharing of ideas, tied together by what our culture has established as acceptable social behavior (at least at face). An attempt to make it more objective has a very high chance of objectifying women, given it’s their anatomy that’s the focus. Where any objectivity would come into play, is something along the lines of HR policy and/or specific law, as it applies. But since most of these are passing interactions, we have to govern ourselves. In the same way I could “logically” make the argument that my friends face is distinct with an abundance of scar tissue, and that he should understand that it’s a possible distraction, the fact of the matter is that it’s just poor taste and insensitive. It demonstrates a lack of empathy and a fundamental disconnect with how we weave social interactions. Mind you, I’m not attaching any of this specifically to your argument, because you haven’t really gotten in depth, but this is how it comes across when you juxtapose the experiences of women with some of my examples. > [@](#): > > In general, trying to prove one’s position from “look how many people agree with me” is not a very strong argument. While I generally understand what you mean, this is an opinion sub-section. In this dimension, agreements “win”. Just sayin’ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/284 "2013-01-25T20:41:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Perhaps it would be illustrative to imagine a guy who is trying to quit smoking or alcohol or whatever, and now finds himself in a situation where these were readily available and on hand. Yeah, he’s not completely helpless and drawn to ingest them, and certainly the right thing for the guy to do would be to avoid them. **But he would probably be more comfortable if they weren’t right there in front of him.** Agreed. And as a solution to this problem, guys who are assailed by all this discomfort should stay home and let women take care of business. It’s a win win actually. Men don’t have to get annoyed by reminders of girl parts, and women won’t have to be leered at. I wonder why no one has considered this idea before… ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/285 "2013-01-25T21:08:09Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > No one is disputing that they can be distracting, _in general_. But if you’re at work (or really pretty much everywhere but especially at work) and you allow a normally dressed coworker’s/woman’s body to distract you to the point of annoyance, the problem is with you, not her. Up to a point maybe (depending on what “normally dressed” means), but it’s not true. If I wear a hat with 79 blinking lights I cannot say “the problem is with you” if you get distracted. Women’s (or men’s) bodies are not sacred vessels that cannot even be thought of in an incorrect fashion. if a coworker bringd a Raiders necktie, can’t I ask him about the playoffs? I’ve asked female friends and they all know that even good, polite men will be tempted to take a peek so they dress in a way to minimise temptation. No, we’re not going to rip yout clothes off and bite off your breasts, we’re men not monsters. Only on the SDMB do I find women that think that breasts, regardless of their beauty or how prominently they are shown should never be noticed. What’s next, you come naked and if soembody looks at you you’ll say “yeah, I have a vagina, deal with it”?. Jerks that make other people feel bad are always wrong, but the idea the women forget that straight men are sexual beings is ridiculous. I’ve told friends and coworkers to “cover the girls a bit” because I respect them not because i want to control women’s bodies. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/286 "2013-01-25T21:20:15Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Up to a point maybe (depending on what “normally dressed” means), but it’s not true. If I wear a hat with 79 blinking lights I cannot say “the problem is with you” if you get distracted. Women’s (or men’s) bodies are not sacred vessels that cannot even be thought of in an incorrect fashion. What is the point in positing an extreme about a ridiculous flashing hat when the person you quoted took care to put in that “normally dressed” qualifier? Get a clue. A hat with 79 flashing lights is not normal dress. A v-neck sweater is. So is a form fitting business suit. Apples to apples, please. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/287 "2013-01-25T21:21:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > if a coworker bringd a Raiders necktie, can’t I ask him about the playoffs? So you are equivocating breasts with a Raiders necktie. Reckon you could get in trouble at work for leering at the tie or asking the football fan to cover the tie up? > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Only on the SDMB do I find women that think that breasts, regardless of their beauty or how prominently they are shown should never be noticed. Hey, can you show me that post? I missed it. It must be buried in all the posts where women said “Yeah, we know you look, just use discretion.” > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Jerks that make other people feel bad are always wrong, but the idea the women forget that straight men are sexual beings is ridiculous. I’ve told friends and coworkers to “cover the girls a bit” because I respect them not because i want to control women’s bodies. That’s crass and controlling and I would be offended by the suggestion and avoid your company in the future after writing you off as lacking in self-control. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/288 "2013-01-25T21:22:14Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Jerks that make other people feel bad are always wrong, but the idea the women forget that straight men are sexual beings is ridiculous. I’ve told friends and coworkers to “cover the girls a bit” because I respect them not because i want to control women’s bodies. 😕 You instruct them to do something with their bodies, but not because you want to control their bodies? does not compute. If you’re so out of control that some attractive cleavage destroys your attention, how about controlling your OWN body, starting with your eyeballs? I’ve got only the happiest associations with cleavage. But in a work setting, it’s on me not to get distracted. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/289 "2013-01-25T21:23:19Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Up to a point maybe (depending on what “normally dressed” means), but it’s not true. If I wear a hat with 79 blinking lights I cannot say “the problem is with you” if you get distracted. Women’s (or men’s) bodies are not sacred vessels that cannot even be thought of in an incorrect fashion. if a coworker bringd a Raiders necktie, can’t I ask him about the playoffs? > > I’ve asked female friends and they all know that even good, polite men will be tempted to take a peek so they dress in a way to minimise temptation. No, we’re not going to rip yout clothes off and bite off your breasts, we’re men not monsters. > > Only on the SDMB do I find women that think that breasts, regardless of their beauty or how prominently they are shown should never be noticed. What’s next, you come naked and if soembody looks at you you’ll say “yeah, I have a vagina, deal with it”?. > > Jerks that make other people feel bad are always wrong, but the idea the women forget that straight men are sexual beings is ridiculous. I’ve told friends and coworkers to “cover the girls a bit” because I respect them not because i want to control women’s bodies. I’m sure HR has a nice file. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/290 "2013-01-25T21:42:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What is the point in positing an extreme about a ridiculous flashing hat when the person you quoted took care to put in that “normally dressed” qualifier? > > Get a clue. A hat with 79 flashing lights is not normal dress. A v-neck sweater is. So is a form fitting business suit. Apples to apples, please. Exactly, that why I said “depending on what normally dressed means”. > [@Troppus](#): > > So you are equivocating breasts with a Raiders necktie. Reckon you could get in trouble at work for leering at the tie or asking the football fan to cover the tie up? > > Hey, can you show me that post? I missed it. It must be buried in all the posts where women said “Yeah, we know you look, just use discretion.” > > That’s crass and controlling and I would be offended by the suggestion and avoid your company in the future after writing you off as lacking in self-control. I’m not equivocating, I’m saying that what you show is what you show and pretending you’re not is ridiculous; but apparently in the US women are fragile flowers that cower at the possibility of a man stealing a glance. The women I work with would either tell you to fuck off or give a fuck about the issue. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 😕 You instruct them to do something with their bodies, but not because you want to control their bodies? does not compute. If you’re so out of control that some attractive cleavage destroys your attention, how about controlling your OWN body, starting with your eyeballs? > > I’ve got only the happiest associations with cleavage. But in a work setting, it’s on me not to get distracted. Instruct them??? Out of control??? There is a difference, mind you, between a little distraction and out of control. Apparently there are only two options: sex-starved monster or robot, life is more compicated. If they are farting and I tell them to stop, am I controlling their bodies? My point is that women can dress anyway they want. > [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I’m sure HR has a nice file. No, the files are dull grey. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/291 "2013-01-25T21:44:02Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What’s next, you come naked and if soembody looks at you you’ll say "yeah, I have a vagina, deal with it. Actually, yeah. We’re MEN! We’re expected to hunt and kill, fight and die, defend and protect, lead. We’re samurais, Navy Seals, ninjas, we’re the descendants of clan Badass.The entire fucking **planet** is covered with our accomplishments! And you namy-pamby whining bitches are talking about how just _glimpsing_ a pair of tits can turn your brain to mush? Shame, that’s what you should be feeling right now. John Wayne’s ghost should come back and junk punch the lot of you! Jesus Effing Christ, it’s pathetic that any of you would even try to defend this position! “Poor me, I can’t help it.” If you’re not man enough to keep your eyes UP and your puny testorone levels down, get gender-reassigned and stare at your own. We don’t need you. I mean, damn!! ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/292 "2013-01-25T21:46:34Z")
> [@Sparky\_the\_Wonder\_Spirit](#): > > P.S. If someone works the word “shrill” into their next comment, I win Chauvinist Boilerplate Bingo\*. > > - 1st prize is an Arabian _abaya_ and the collected words of Camille Paglia. I think **Troppus** has some shrill insights. Bingo? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/293 "2013-01-25T21:53:08Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Actually, yeah. > > We’re MEN! We’re expected to hunt and kill, fight and die, defend and protect, lead. We’re samurais, Navy Seals, ninjas, we’re the descendants of clan Badass.The entire fucking **planet** is covered with our accomplishments! And you namy-pamby whining bitches are talking about how just _glimpsing_ a pair of tits can turn your brain to mush? Shame, that’s what you should be feeling right now. John Wayne’s ghost should come back and junk punch the lot of you! Jesus Effing Christ, it’s pathetic that any of you would even try to defend this position! “Poor me, I can’t help it.” If you’re not man enough to keep your eyes UP and your puny testorone levels down, get gender-reassigned and stare at your own. We don’t need you. I mean, damn!! If I had puny testosterone levels, I wouldn’t like breasts. Again with the pervert-or-robot false dichotomy. I’ve never in my life caused a woman to feel bad because she was showing her breasts, but maybe that’s because the women I’ve enountered know they have breasts. ---
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/294 "2013-01-25T22:06:09Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’ve asked female friends and they all know that even good, polite men will be tempted to take a peek so they dress in a way to minimise temptation. No, we’re not going to rip yout clothes off and bite off your breasts, we’re men not monsters. > (snip) > > Jerks that make other people feel bad are always wrong, but the idea the women forget that straight men are sexual beings is ridiculous. I’ve told friends and coworkers to “cover the girls a bit” because I respect them not because i want to control women’s bodies. \*I will be your father figure, Put your tiny hand in mine. I will be your preacher, teacher…\* For most women, breasts are not a choice. They just kind of happen. The vast majority of women have them. A hat, a tie, etc, are all choices. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/295 "2013-01-25T22:15:01Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Again with the pervert-or-robot false dichotomy. That’s not the dichotomy. There are men and there are guys. Men are adults, the mature version of a human male, capable of exercising self control in all areas of their lives. Guys are immature males that sometimes never progress pass those early years of puberty despite their biological age. They have little control in most areas and blame everyone else for that lack of control. Like children, you have to hide what you don’t want them to have, because they don’t have the maturity to manage their impulses. As an adult, you should be able to walk through an office full of buck-naked supermodels without batting an eye or dropping your gaze. That’s a man. Think of any male icon, real or fictional - James Bond, Norman Schwarzkopf, Cary Grant - anyone we’ve ever looked to and said “That’s the kind of guy I want to be.” Not one of them turns into a slack-jawed idiot at the sight of some cleavage. Shame on you and the watery manhood you’ve brought to our times. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/296 "2013-01-25T22:16:45Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Exactly, that why I said “depending on what normally dressed means”. It means just what most English speaking adults think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/297 "2013-01-25T22:21:06Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If I had puny testosterone levels, I wouldn’t like breasts. > Again with the pervert-or-robot false dichotomy. I’ve never in my life caused a woman to feel bad because she was showing her breasts, but maybe that’s because the women I’ve enountered know they have breasts. And you never told a woman you weren’t romantically involved with to cover her breasts. I’m certain of that. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/298 "2013-01-25T22:24:10Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > That’s not the dichotomy. There are men and there are guys. Men are adults, the mature version of a human male, capable of exercising self control in all areas of their lives. Guys are immature males that sometimes never progress pass those early years of puberty despite their biological age. They have little control in most areas and blame everyone else for that lack of control. Like children, you have to hide what you don’t want them to have, because they don’t have the maturity to manage their impulses. > > As an adult, you should be able to walk through an office full of buck-naked supermodels without batting an eye or dropping your gaze. That’s a man. Think of any male icon, real or fictional - James Bond, Norman Schwarzkopf, Cary Grant - anyone we’ve ever looked to and said “That’s the kind of guy I want to be.” Not one of them turns into a slack-jawed idiot at the sight of some cleavage. > > Shame on you and the watery manhood you’ve brought to our times. I want to marry this post. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/299 "2013-01-25T22:57:28Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I want to marry this post. He’s two for two. If he hits another one, we might need to strap him down and give him a sex change. 😛 Except that he is obviously a MAN and not a GUY. We wouldn’t want to waste that. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/300 "2013-01-25T22:58:39Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > He’s two for two. If he hits another one, we might need to strap him down and give him a sex change. 😛 > > Except that he is obviously a MAN and not a GUY. We wouldn’t want to waste that. Ima show him my stapler. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=16)