# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/321 "2013-01-26T20:42:43Z")
I’ve no doubt you know a lot of women who put up with shoddy behavior, roll their eyes and say “eh, guys.” People like you have spent their lives teaching them not to expect much from someone with a Y chromosome. Your entire **premise** here is “hey, don’t expect much from us.” Have you any idea how disgusting and contemptible it is to hear you and your ilk use being male as an _excuse_, like it’s a freaking handicap? Accepting the mantle of manhood used to be strived for, an honor bestowed on someone after enduring trials and hardships. Generations of boys _died_ trying to achieve the rank, faced lions with nothing but a loin cloth and sticks, climbed mountains, lived on their own in the woods. Being a man is a status to be lived up to, not an affliction to be lived down. Nowadays, it’s simpler. You decide at some point what kind of man you want to be, and you start living up to it. It sounds easy, but it isn’t, as evidenced by the _huge_ number of guys that never bother. You don’t get far before you realize it’s going to be tougher than you thought, keeping your word, standing up for what’s right, being considerate of others, taking care of your loved ones. But as before, you become someone others can respect because you already know deep down that you respect yourself. The real crux of your little parable about leaving a thousand dollars unattended lies there. Would it be stolen? Probably. Would **I** steal it? No way. That’s not the man I want to be, and so I’m not. And I wouldn’t think much of the person that did take it, nor do I think the fact that there’s a\* lot \*of such people an excuse to cut the person that did some slack. What’s odd is that I don’t think you’d think much of someone that would take it either, even though you’d take it yourself. I’m not seeing a guy that thinks well of himself in these posts. Not being much worse than the next guy makes for a poor yardstick in life. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Interesting that telling a friend that she might be showing too much, especially when women in this thread have said that it happens wihtout their knowing, is either controlling their bodies or being stupid. > > Interesting that it takes super power to know you’re not a creep. > > Interesting that James Bond is offered as a positive male icon on this thread, when he straddles the line between flirting and molesting. > > Interesring that Cary Grant is offered as a positive model, when he was married 5 or 6 times, not what you call knowing how to treat women. > > Interesting that people on this thread are shocked about living in the real world. I imagine they’d be shocked if they left 1000 dollars on the street and then came back and didn’t find them they’d be shocked that people are not either robots or Stalin. > > The most interesting thing, however, is that the strong, empowered women on the thread are such fragile flowers, terrified at every man who isn’t a robot. I’m so glad that the women i know how to deal with creeps. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/322 "2013-01-26T21:58:35Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > I’ve no doubt you know a lot of women who put up with shoddy behavior, roll their eyes and say “eh, guys.” People like you have spent their lives teaching them not to expect much from someone with a Y chromosome. Your entire **premise** here is “hey, don’t expect much from us.” Have you any idea how disgusting and contemptible it is to hear you and your ilk use being male as an _excuse_, like it’s a freaking handicap? > > Accepting the mantle of manhood used to be strived for, an honor bestowed on someone after enduring trials and hardships. Generations of boys _died_ trying to achieve the rank, faced lions with nothing but a loin cloth and sticks, climbed mountains, lived on their own in the woods. Being a man is a status to be lived up to, not an affliction to be lived down. > …snip… It’s official. I’m in love. (and it only took three or four posts). 😃 FWIW, although I’ve caught guys looking, and even a few who realized they’d glanced too long, and quickly looked away with a “whoops, didn’t realize I’d tarried there THAT long” blush. I’ve been lucky enough to have not had but one creeper do the stare/push my physical boundaries thing over my breasts. That I’ve ever seen anyway, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, I just never noticed. Like all of the other lady dopers who’ve posted on this subject. If I adjust my clothing or cover up, it’s usually due to my own sense of modesty or realization that my shirt has changed its fit (whoops, I’m bending over to pick up X, I’d better hold the collar of this shirt to my collar bone, it’s been known to swing out and reveal all). I do have kind of a funny story though. Once upon a time, when I was young and reasonably cute, I was wearing a cut up sweatshirt ala “Flash Dance”. With my _ahem_ endowments, I had NO business wearing such a shirt (especially braless ), but heck, I was young and dumb. I’d gone to work to pick up a paycheck and one of my coworkers was in the break room with his dog (whom we all loved). I bent over and started squealing “Hi puppers!” and other doggie talk, and the dog, (one of those “I love all my peeps” dogs), jumps up on me, and accidentally got his claw caught in the edge of the neckline, so as he jumped back down the entire top of my shirt got caught in his claws, and he pretty much bared my entire top half to about 20 of my male coworkers (I worked in a male dominated field and was one of only two women who worked there). I quickly grabbed the top and readjusted it at the same time the dog’s owner said “Good Dog”! I had to laugh, even though I was embarrassed as all get out. Now, not one of my coworkers acted sleazy about it, there wasn’t so much as one single creeper look when I looked back up to see who’d seen what, and no one ever teased me about it afterward. They were all quite classy about it (though I’m sure most of them got a really good look), not even the dog’s owner had said it in a sleazy “wooo I’m in a strip club” way. In fact, he was saying it in his typical “oooh, chance to be funny” way. (I swear, that guy missed his calling, he really should have been a standup comedian). I guess my point it, I think most men are more along the lines of keeping their glances and admiration to themselves, and few are the sleazy drooling type. And **Aji** , and **FP** are just Pure D Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/323 "2013-01-26T22:06:46Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > I’ve no doubt you know a lot of women who put up with shoddy behavior, roll their eyes and say “eh, guys.” People like you have spent their lives teaching them not to expect much from someone with a Y chromosome. Your entire **premise** here is “hey, don’t expect much from us.” Have you any idea how disgusting and contemptible it is to hear you and your ilk use being male as an _excuse_, like it’s a freaking handicap? > > Accepting the mantle of manhood used to be strived for, an honor bestowed on someone after enduring trials and hardships. Generations of boys _died_ trying to achieve the rank, faced lions with nothing but a loin cloth and sticks, climbed mountains, lived on their own in the woods. Being a man is a status to be lived up to, not an affliction to be lived down. > > Nowadays, it’s simpler. You decide at some point what kind of man you want to be, and you start living up to it. It sounds easy, but it isn’t, as evidenced by the _huge_ number of guys that never bother. You don’t get far before you realize it’s going to be tougher than you thought, keeping your word, standing up for what’s right, being considerate of others, taking care of your loved ones. But as before, you become someone others can respect because you already know deep down that you respect yourself. > > The real crux of your little parable about leaving a thousand dollars unattended lies there. Would it be stolen? Probably. Would **I** steal it? No way. That’s not the man I want to be, and so I’m not. And I wouldn’t think much of the person that did take it, nor do I think the fact that there’s a\* lot \*of such people an excuse to cut the person that did some slack. > > What’s odd is that I don’t think you’d think much of someone that would take it either, even though you’d take it yourself. I’m not seeing a guy that thinks well of himself in these posts. Not being much worse than the next guy makes for a poor yardstick in life. I’ve laughed through most of this thread, and haven’t taken much of it seriously. But this really gets to me, enough that were I raising a boy I’d fold this away to discuss with him before he leaves home. Made my eyes water. And turned me on a little bit, too. You’re alright, **epbrown01**. A man’s man, a woman’s man. I’ll bet you get plenty. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/324 "2013-01-26T22:46:00Z")
Aji de Gallina, epbrown is bustin yo ASS up in this thread. _Damn_. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/325 "2013-01-26T23:11:11Z")
There should have been nothing else to say after “watery manhood”. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/326 "2013-01-27T00:13:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The most interesting thing, however, is that the strong, empowered women on the thread are such fragile flowers, terrified at every man who isn’t a robot. I’m so glad that the women i know how to deal with creeps. So do the women in this thread. They button another button, adjust their sweater (sometimes while the middle finger is extended), change their body position (leaning back in a chair rather than forward, standing up rather than letting him sit over her) and - where possible - get away from the creep. The whole issue with this thread is that hurts some people’s feelings. Because they don’t perceive their own behavior as creepy. The number of times in my professional career I’ve turned over a keyboard and chair to a guy with “here, why don’t you drive” is significant. And usually because me typing while they stare down my shirt from behind isn’t really productive for either of us. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/327 "2013-01-27T00:19:22Z")
Where the hell do you people see all this cleavage? It seems like I see it only rarely, but since I’m not a cleavage fan it might be that I just don’t notice. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendajo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arrendajo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrendajo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/328 "2013-01-27T01:29:46Z")
Well 10 minutes after I posted that a woman leaned over my desk in a low-cut black t-shirt showing off a big jiggly swath of cleavage. I didn’t gawk, though. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/329 "2013-01-27T01:38:34Z")
> [@Arrendajo](#): > > Well 10 minutes after I posted that a woman leaned over my desk in a low-cut black t-shirt showing off a big jiggly swath of cleavage. I didn’t gawk, though. The important thing is that you appreciated it without gloating or making her uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/330 "2013-01-27T02:56:02Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’ll bet you get plenty. Sweet of you to say, but I would SO never use that expression! LOL 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/331 "2013-01-28T05:31:00Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Careful, you’re getting to the “but its their fault for wearing that!” zone So if a man were to walk naked along the high street, no woman would look at his genitalia??? If a woman exposes a part of their anatomy that men are attracted to, it’s the men’s fault for looking??? With logic like that, it’s no wonder the divorce rate is so high! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/332 "2013-01-28T05:47:43Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Aji de Gallina, epbrown is bustin yo ASS up in this thread. _Damn_. Truth. I have not seen any argument here so conclusively, decisively defeated since **Starving Artist** got out his paper towel tube. And that goes for all the MRAs who have posted here. They have not “brought it.” They have nothing to “bring.” ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/333 "2013-01-28T05:51:11Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > So if a man were to walk naked along the high street, no woman would look at his genitalia??? > > If a woman exposes a part of their anatomy that men are attracted to, it’s the men’s fault for looking??? > > With logic like that, it’s no wonder the divorce rate is so high! Wise words indeed from a wise man. However, it must be noted that despite modern trends in sociocultural history, regional and local variations remain salutatory at best. As Shakespeare opined in his famous work _The Tempest_: > [@](#): > > I like to fuck girl up the bum but i hate it when people touch my bum… _beacause its feel like bumbsecs._ I believe nothing more needs be said on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![GreenElf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@GreenElf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenElf)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/334 "2013-01-28T06:20:35Z")
What’s a MRA? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/335 "2013-01-28T06:40:52Z")
I haven’t been following this thread, and am not commenting on the merits of the arguments stated by various people. I would like to say though, that **epbrown01** ’s musings on ‘manhood’ just struck me as being a whole lot like the overly romanticised nice guys that women are supposedly looking for, but don’t seem to actually want. Combined with internet tough guy. I’ll place my money on him (if he actually sincerely holds those views in real life) not getting ‘plenty’. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/336 "2013-01-28T08:44:34Z")
You may be right, bldysabba. Maybe epbrown is weak little mama’s boy virgin, living in a basement. Nevertheless, he destroyed Aji’s argument in this thread. Plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/337 "2013-01-28T09:27:58Z")
> [@GreenElf](#): > > What’s a MRA? There are some definitions on google. However I like the urban dictionary version best. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/338 "2013-01-28T09:40:26Z")
Originally it stood for ‘men’s rights activist’. Although, like KFC, the 3-letter initialism has replaced the original phrase, and refers to guys who troll feminist sites and post sick crap on Urban Dictionary. The kind of guys who say stuff like "that’s just how the world is, so get used to it’ and base their theories of relations between the genders on just-so stories from lame evo-psych pseudoscience and have no discernible actual connection with activism for rights of the non-privileged. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/339 "2013-01-28T10:28:43Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > So if a man were to walk naked along the high street, no woman would look at his genitalia??? > > If a woman exposes a part of their anatomy that men are attracted to, it’s the men’s fault for looking??? > > With logic like that, it’s no wonder the divorce rate is so high! We’re talking about covering up cleavage, which is: - Not full nakedness - Present, to a bigger or lesser degree (depending on bosom), in most clothes, even those that have been deemed professional/work appropriate Look, most women have said that they don’t mind men noticing that they have boobs. It’s taken as a given they will. What they do mind is how the men react to it. They can catch a glance and keep on interacting with the woman, or they can act in a way that makes the woman wary/uncomfortable. It’s the minority in the second group that certainly makes women want to cover up, so as to dissuade them. But here is the thing… We’ve been giving reasons why we cover up, and most of them don’t have to do with the poor little child-men. Not at all! Sometimes it truly is “us, not you”. We cover up based on expectations, based on settings, based on many other things. We don’t necessarily cover up because someone is staring. We cover up based on what society and etiquette may dictate. Like I said, I like my boss, he’s a nice guy, and I’m sure that while he may have noticed my chest, he has never made me uncomfortable. Even so, if I have to go talk to him for whatever reason (does not occur often), I’m going to double check and adjust accordingly. Heck, if it is too cold, I put on a jacket or a shawl on top. Why? Because doing otherwise would be unprofessional. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/340 "2013-01-28T13:07:25Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > So if a man were to walk naked along the high street, no woman would look at his genitalia??? > > If a woman exposes a part of their anatomy that men are attracted to, it’s the men’s fault for looking??? > > With logic like that, it’s no wonder the divorce rate is so high! I would hope that, in the US, if a man or a woman were to walk down the street naked, the cops would be called. Anyone flashing or parading their genitalia around in public is so outside social norms we’ve made it illegal. But we haven’t made cleavage illegal. Dressing to show a little cleavage has been well within societal norms for hundreds of years within western cultures. If I go to Saudi Arabia or to an Amish community flashing a lot of boob, I’m not surprised to be treated like I’m outside the norm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=18)