# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/341 "2013-01-28T13:10:40Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I would like to say though, that **epbrown01** ’s musings on ‘manhood’ just struck me as being a whole lot like the overly romanticised nice guys that women are supposedly looking for, but don’t seem to actually want. Combined with internet tough guy. I’ll place my money on him (if he actually sincerely holds those views in real life) not getting ‘plenty’. Hmm. I don’t want to re-direct the thread to me or my sex life, but the views are mine and I do live by them. I see them less as romantic and more as old-fashioned, as I was raised by my grandparents and greatly admired them, especially my grandfather. Those same values mean I’ve had few partners, always long-term, so you’re right that I’m not “getting plenty.” The nice guy/tough guy thing is tricky, as I have different views on what being tough is. As an example - I’ve been to every Twilight movie since the series started. My friends uniformly see this as me being a pushover, uncharacteristically so given my personality. From my perspective, I don’t see how a grown man, most of whom see themselves strong and/or tough, or even the ones that see themselves as sensitve and caring, can stand in a theater lobby whining like a 5 year old about spending a measly 2 hours making someone he cares about happy. I shut up and go. Which brings us back around to the thread topic, and where I started. To me, you can’t claim to be a man with all the implications people pile onto the word when they throw it out, then moan and rationalize and whine about how you can’t be expected to control your helpless little self, as so many were about the cleavage issue. Just shut up and stop staring. Is that attitude being a tough guy, a nice guy, or just a man? I always shoot for the last and leave the interpretations alone. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/342 "2013-01-28T13:39:40Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > To me, you can’t claim to be a man with all the implications people pile onto the word when they throw it out, then moan and rationalize and whine about how you can’t be expected to control your helpless little self, as so many were about the cleavage issue. Just shut up and stop staring. Is that attitude being a tough guy, a nice guy, or just a man? I always shoot for the last and leave the interpretations alone. I call it plain common sense. Integrity. Basic human decency. Having a clue about social interactions. Self-respect expressed in showing respect to others. Taking responsibility for one’s own actions. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/343 "2013-01-28T17:49:21Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > But if you’re at work (or really pretty much everywhere but especially at work) and you allow a normally dressed coworker’s/woman’s body to distract you to the point of annoyance, the problem is with you, not her. I agree with this. > [@Krouget](#): > > What is the significance of this “qualifier” and how does it dispute the general consensus, if at all\*? In just about any thread on a given topic, you’ll experience varying degrees of sensitivity and conviction, so this observation certainly isn’t unique. > > \*_After all, the OP asked a specific group of people a question and received answers from the available audience. If you don’t speak up, you don’t really have a voice (in this specific context)…so yes, anyone who has any type of motivated interest, has spoken up or taken a read (based on views)._ That’s true, but not relevant to my point. Which is, again, that you can’t prove a concensus from a non-representative sample. > [@](#): > > Perspective can be different for anyone, but it only begs the question; why do you think perspective _matters_ when its her body? Because there are two people involved. > [@](#): > > Or better yet, how do you make the honest distinction between “perspective” and “justification” on such a topic, without treading the line that is sexism? Not sure what this means. > [@](#): > > In reading a few of your responses, I’ve seen you use the idea of “logic” as a base to issue a counterpoint, but IMO, I don’t think this is a traditionally objective discussion. By that, I mean there are no real “facts” to operate as a launchpad to serve the unpopular side of this discussion. This is more a subjective sharing of ideas, tied together by what our culture has established as acceptable social behavior (at least at face). An attempt to make it more objective has a very high chance of objectifying women, given it’s their anatomy that’s the focus. Where any objectivity would come into play, is something along the lines of HR policy and/or specific law, as it applies. I’m not sure I quite understand what you’re saying here. But to the extent that you’re ruling using a logical process, ISTM like a way to translate feelings into fact, and thereby give the trump card to whoever has the strongest feelings about it. If you’re saying something else, then I’ve missed it. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/344 "2013-01-28T19:36:29Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > So if a man were to walk naked along the high street, no woman would look at his genitalia??? > > If a woman exposes a part of their anatomy that men are attracted to, it’s the men’s fault for looking??? > > With logic like that, it’s no wonder the divorce rate is so high! Looking is fine, but don’t stare. I think the women here have made it quite clear that there is a line between a peek and an ogle. If you cannot behave yourself in polite company where its not ok to stare, then yes, it is your fault. Women aren’t responsible for your own eyes nor should it be expected of them. The fact that they dress in a way that sometimes shows some cleavage does not give you the right to leer at them. They’re not doing it for you, they’re doing it for them And WTF does this have to do with divorce? ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/345 "2013-01-28T20:45:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree with this.That’s true, but not relevant to my point. Which is, again, that you can’t prove a concensus from a non-representative sample. It’s relevant. The only _representative samples_ we can account for, are from members motivated enough to respond to the OP’s question(s). Of that group, the majority of respondents have done so in an overwhelmingly similar fashion, consisting mostly of women, but certainly not limited to. The operating word here, is _consensus_, and based on what I’ve read, one has been established, meeting the criteria of a largely subjective social question. So while I wouldn’t use the word “prove” (because I don’t think it applies), we certainly have found our answer(s). > [@](#): > > Because there are two people involved. But one belongs. Unless you’re invited to interact with her buxom in a way that she sees comfortable, then one view is recognized, and understandably, that’s the one that matters. Our perspective is inherently extroverted, and as such, has very limited bearing on how a given woman chooses to conduct herself (mishap or otherwise). With this understanding, it leads to the response, below. > [@](#): > > Not sure what this means. There is a line called “sexism” which can potentially be crossed, when a _perspective_ is equally used as _justification_ for actions: _-“Hey, why are you adjusting your shirt? If I can see your girls, I have a right to look…what? I’m not being lecherous.”_ The above is what the OP essentially expressed, in what can be viewed as a loaded (with implications), question. In the original context that you entered, a person created an analogy between a woman’s breast and that of a hat with blinking lights, claiming they were both noticeable-- sure, that’s _his perspective_, but it’s a bit disingenuous when you consider the core of the argument and what motivates a person to wear a hat with blinking lights, versus what a woman naturally comes equipped with. The fact that many of the responding women had _already_ debunked the premise in the OP, drove it home. When you add other touches of your perspective, such as: “_Women have a lot of emotions that men don’t share and find very puzzling._”, it may not be your intention, but it does come across as sexist, so you have to tread carefully. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure I quite understand what you’re saying here. But to the extent that you’re ruling using a logical process, ISTM like a way to translate feelings into fact, and thereby give the trump card to whoever has the strongest feelings about it. If you’re saying something else, then I’ve missed it. The OP didn’t lead with questions that were traditionally objective, where you would promote discussion by pushing facts and proof to bolster a point. His questions were loosely structured, so as to invite subjective qualitative feedback, in order to establish a greater understanding.\*\*\*\*\* So far as logic _should_ be applied, most of the women responded more logically about what _actually_ happens when cleavage is exposed, as opposed to the idea that it’s sexually motivated. Go figure. \*\*\*\*\*[ul][li]Why do many women wear shirts that show cleavage, then move their hands to cover it up, by moving the shirt up or closing their outer garment, when a man is talking with them?[/li][li] Why not just don’t wear a shirt that shows cleavage in the first place rather than implicating the man of lechery with the adjustments?[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/346 "2013-01-28T22:34:30Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Truth. I have not seen any argument here so conclusively, decisively defeated since **Starving Artist** got out his paper towel tube. > > And that goes for all the MRAs who have posted here. They have not “brought it.” They have nothing to “bring.” Who can disagree that talking into our leering at a women’s chest is socially unacceptable behaviour ? MRAs aren’t concerned about the right to stare at your ta-tas unfettered, get over yourselves seriously. MRAs are about true equality for men which isn’t quite there yet. e.g. Divorce, custody issues, reproductive rights etc… Your off, way off. I work with a lot of women, I don’t talk to their tits. I do check them out when it’s safe. I’m sure if I had eyes in the back of my head I’d catch a lot of women checking out my ass. Some times I catch women checking out my crotch. Big deal, if it bothers women that much tell them not us. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/347 "2013-01-28T22:44:16Z")
> [@Krouget](#): > > It’s relevant. The only _representative samples_ we can account for, are from members motivated enough to respond to the OP’s question(s). Of that group, the majority of respondents have done so in an overwhelmingly similar fashion, consisting mostly of women, but certainly not limited to. > > The operating word here, is _consensus_, and based on what I’ve read, one has been established, meeting the criteria of a largely subjective social question. So while I wouldn’t use the word “prove” (because I don’t think it applies), we certainly have found our answer(s). If you have an unrepresentative sample, the fact that it may be the only sample that you have does not imbue it with more meaning. > [@](#): > > But one belongs. Unless you’re invited to interact with her buxom in a way that she sees comfortable, then one view is recognized, and understandably, that’s the one that matters. Our perspective is inherently extroverted, and as such, has very limited bearing on how a given woman chooses to conduct herself (mishap or otherwise). There are posters in this thread who have said that they don’t care what men find distracting and so on, and the only thing that counts WRT how they dress is them themselves, but that’s not what I was responding to. I was responding to those who made declarations of fact about what men would or would not find distracting, and in this context it’s ludicrous to assert that only a woman’s perspective counts. [Which is besides for the fact that despite a lot of tough talk about HR, ultimately the voluntary cooperation of men is what’s being being requested.] > [@](#): > > There is a line called “sexism” which can potentially be crossed, when a _perspective_ is equally used as _justification_ for actions: > > _-“Hey, why are you adjusting your shirt? If I can see your girls, I have a right to look…what? I’m not being lecherous.”_ > > The above is what the OP essentially expressed, in what can be viewed as a loaded (with implications), question. I disagree that the OP said anything of this sort, but even if he did, I certainly didn’t. > [@](#): > > In the original context that you entered, a person created an analogy between a woman’s breast and that of a hat with blinking lights, claiming they were both noticeable-- sure, that’s _his perspective_, but it’s a bit disingenuous when you consider the core of the argument and what motivates a person to wear a hat with blinking lights, versus what a woman naturally comes equipped with. Two things can be similar in some ways despite being dissimilar in other ways. The distinction you draw is valid, but despite that distinction uncovered breasts and blinking lights are the same WRT the specific issue of whether they can be distracting. Which is what the issue that I commented on. > [@](#): > > The fact that many of the responding women had _already_ debunked the premise in the OP, drove it home. I disagree that anything has been “debunked”. Many women accurately pointed out that often women are not intending to reveal anything, but ISTR that there were also some who said that they did (just that they still didn’t want to be ogled anyway) and even if there weren’t, the sum of our knowlege is not derived from this thread, and there is no doubt that some women intentionally wear revealing clothing. I don’t want to make too much of this, because I agree that that the answer to the OP’s question is generally because of reasons given in this thread (e.g. discomfort with perceived leering, different standards for bosses, clothing shifts, and so on), but it’s worth noting anyway because so many posters have attempted to monopolize opinion on this subject. > [@](#): > > The OP didn’t lead with questions that were traditionally objective, where you would promote discussion by pushing facts and proof to bolster a point. His questions were loosely structured, so as to invite subjective qualitative feedback, in order to establish a greater understanding.\*\*\*\*\* > > So far as logic _should_ be applied, most of the women responded more logically about what _actually_ happens when cleavage is exposed, as opposed to the idea that it’s sexually motivated. Go figure. That’s fine, but the discussion went a lot futher than that, and that’s where I came in. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/348 "2013-01-29T05:38:29Z")
Sorry I didn’t come back earlier…eye-raping women’s cleaveage while kicking puppies is a lot of fun, but is sure takes a lot of time. > [@colander](#): > > Maybe it is not this guy’s fault he is such a backwards Billy. Let’s face it, Latin America sucks rocks when it comes to gender issues. > > PS. I actually am a Robot Stalin and I steal people’s shit off the ground all the time, so I have no idea what he’s getting at here. Wow, you goin’ for the stereotype? (Chile: Female presindent, possibly getting a second term, Brazil: Female prez, Argentina: Ditto, Peru: Female candidates going to runoff in 2 of the last 3 elections) You’re American so that possible means you’re either mass-shooting kids in a school or attacking a country a killing civilians with drones. > [@Lamia](#): > > What _I_ find most interesting about this thread is how a few (definitely not all) of the men posting here are all hurt, offended, and angry that women are expressing their opinions in a thread about women on the specific topic of why women behave in a certain way. > > How foolish of us to think that our perspective was of any value! I guess we should have known to keep our mouths shut and let the men explain things. Since I’m not hurt, offendend, or angry about anyone expressing the opinions here, I’ll simply pass on those comments. Women’s perspectives have value in all threads, saying they don’t is simply trying to earn some cheap pity-points. > [@Troppus](#): > > Warning a close friend that she may be overexposed is a nice favor. Asking a coworker or acquaintance to cover up because you are too distracted by her body to conduct yourself appropriately is gauche and a ticket to HR. > > Creep is easy to define. It’s the guys who ascribe personality traits and motives to workaday fashions. Creeps are guys who express anger at women who fiddle with their clothing or feel uncomfortable in their presence. Creeps are guys who invade the personal space of women who have expressed no interest in them. Creeps are guys who expect women to tolerate situations which make them uncomfortable because they asked for it by being attractive. > > There are miles between the archetypical Hollywood hunk who can conduct himself appropriately in the presence of the opposite sex and the stereotypical American frat boy who turns into an aggressive, forward horndog with unrealistic and unfounded expectations of women. > > Scared? Not us. Irritated and embarrassed at your lack of self-control, yes. Also, we find your predicament hilarious, and we’ll probably continue to poke fun at you easily flustered, ill-mannered, easily distractable types. > > Interesting that the _majority_ of women \*and men \*posting to this thread feel that women’s bodies can be noticed and admired without causing any ruffled feathers or an HR incident. Except two or three guys who feel entitled to stare, entitled to demand that women alter their appearance to suit them, who complain loudly that women only allow certain men to crowd their space, and who are unable to carry on a conversation in the presence of breasts. Those guys, the ones in the minority, can just continue to flounder, lost and ill-at-ease in a sea of boobs. I completely and unreservedly aree with your definitions of creep. Lack of self-control? Do point out where I showed it. You make my point better than I could when you said “_women’s bodies can be noticed and admired without causing any ruffled feathers or an HR incident._”, because that’s what I said (or tried to). I clealry said that staring was wrong. If I’m ever in a literal sea of boobs, I’ll be distracted. > [@epbrown01](#): > > I’ve no doubt you know a lot of women who put up with shoddy behavior, roll their eyes and say “eh, guys.” People like you have spent their lives teaching them not to expect much from someone with a Y chromosome. Your entire **premise** here is “hey, don’t expect much from us.” Have you any idea how disgusting and contemptible it is to hear you and your ilk use being male as an _excuse_, like it’s a freaking handicap? > > Accepting the mantle of manhood used to be strived for, an honor bestowed on someone after enduring trials and hardships. Generations of boys _died_ trying to achieve the rank, faced lions with nothing but a loin cloth and sticks, climbed mountains, lived on their own in the woods. Being a man is a status to be lived up to, not an affliction to be lived down. > > Nowadays, it’s simpler. You decide at some point what kind of man you want to be, and you start living up to it. It sounds easy, but it isn’t, as evidenced by the _huge_ number of guys that never bother. You don’t get far before you realize it’s going to be tougher than you thought, keeping your word, standing up for what’s right, being considerate of others, taking care of your loved ones. But as before, you become someone others can respect because you already know deep down that you respect yourself. > > The real crux of your little parable about leaving a thousand dollars unattended lies there. Would it be stolen? Probably. Would **I** steal it? No way. That’s not the man I want to be, and so I’m not. And I wouldn’t think much of the person that did take it, nor do I think the fact that there’s a\* lot \*of such people an excuse to cut the person that did some slack. > > What’s odd is that I don’t think you’d think much of someone that would take it either, even though you’d take it yourself. I’m not seeing a guy that thinks well of himself in these posts. Not being much worse than the next guy makes for a poor yardstick in life. Put up? Never. Telling them to fuck off is closer. Maybe you’re projecting. Your lion-loincloth story woud be a nice Disney story. However, Lion-loincloth societies have, in a gigantic majority of cases, been absolutely shitty to women, you really don’t want to go there for sex issues. It is only when societies have advanced a lot that a creep can be rightfully clasified as “making women feel unconfortable with his demeanor” and not "seeing them as “just spread your legs and then make me dinner”. No slack-cutting here, stealing is stealing. However, if you told your friends that you left 1000 bucks and then act all surpised that you didn’t find them a week later I imagine you won’t get a lot of simpathy. > [@CanvasShoes](#): > > It’s official. I’m in love. (and it only took three or four posts). 😃 > FWIW, although I’ve caught guys looking, and even a few who realized they’d glanced too long, and quickly looked away with a “whoops, didn’t realize I’d tarried there THAT long” blush. I’ve been lucky enough to have not had but one creeper do the stare/push my physical boundaries thing over my breasts. That I’ve ever seen anyway, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, I just never noticed. > > Like all of the other lady dopers who’ve posted on this subject. If I adjust my clothing or cover up, it’s usually due to my own sense of modesty or realization that my shirt has changed its fit (whoops, I’m bending over to pick up X, I’d better hold the collar of this shirt to my collar bone, it’s been known to swing out and reveal all). > > I do have kind of a funny story though. Once upon a time, when I was young and reasonably cute, I was wearing a cut up sweatshirt ala “Flash Dance”. With my _ahem_ endowments, I had NO business wearing such a shirt (especially braless ), but heck, I was young and dumb. > > I’d gone to work to pick up a paycheck and one of my coworkers was in the break room with his dog (whom we all loved). I bent over and started squealing “Hi puppers!” and other doggie talk, and the dog, (one of those “I love all my peeps” dogs), jumps up on me, and accidentally got his claw caught in the edge of the neckline, so as he jumped back down the entire top of my shirt got caught in his claws, and he pretty much bared my entire top half to about 20 of my male coworkers (I worked in a male dominated field and was one of only two women who worked there). > > I quickly grabbed the top and readjusted it at the same time the dog’s owner said “Good Dog”! > > I had to laugh, even though I was embarrassed as all get out. Now, not one of my coworkers acted sleazy about it, there wasn’t so much as one single creeper look when I looked back up to see who’d seen what, and no one ever teased me about it afterward. They were all quite classy about it (though I’m sure most of them got a really good look), not even the dog’s owner had said it in a sleazy “wooo I’m in a strip club” way. In fact, he was saying it in his typical “oooh, chance to be funny” way. (I swear, that guy missed his calling, he really should have been a standup comedian). > > I guess my point it, I think most men are more along the lines of keeping their glances and admiration to themselves, and few are the sleazy drooling type. And **Aji** , and **FP** are just Pure D Wrong. The dog story is perfect. They got a look and were classy about it; that is what I would call normal behaviour. Expecting them to cover their eyes and going to hypnosis therapy to erase any memory of the incident is silly. > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Aji de Gallina, epbrown is bustin yo ASS up in this thread. _Damn_. Only my wife gets to do stuff with my ass. If “bustin yo ASS up” means “absolutely missing the point” then I agree. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > So do the women in this thread. They button another button, adjust their sweater (sometimes while the middle finger is extended), change their body position (leaning back in a chair rather than forward, standing up rather than letting him sit over her) and - where possible - get away from the creep. The whole issue with this thread is that hurts some people’s feelings. Because they don’t perceive their own behavior as creepy. > > The number of times in my professional career I’ve turned over a keyboard and chair to a guy with “here, why don’t you drive” is significant. And usually because me typing while they stare down my shirt from behind isn’t really productive for either of us. Creeps are creeps and should be treated as such, like garbage. Stealing a glance is not being a creep. > [@Johanna](#): > > Truth. I have not seen any argument here so conclusively, decisively defeated since **Starving Artist** got out his paper towel tube. > > And that goes for all the MRAs who have posted here. They have not “brought it.” They have nothing to “bring.” Wow, what a low bar you have set, when a completely wrong arument is a good one. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/349 "2013-01-29T06:49:23Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Wow, you goin’ for the stereotype? (Chile: Female presindent, possibly getting a second term, Brazil: Female prez, Argentina: Ditto, Peru: Female candidates going to runoff in 2 of the last 3 elections) > You’re American so that possible means you’re either mass-shooting kids in a school or attacking a country a killing civilians with drones. So what? India had a female prime minister. Doesn’t mean a damn thing for the rank-and-file women of the country. Anyway, I’m not saying you’re sexist because I know that you live in Latin America. I’m saying you’re sexist because you keep posting sexist things. You’re welcome! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/350 "2013-01-29T06:57:19Z")
'Nother data point here, for what it’s worth. I work with undergraduates all the time. Frequently fairly young ones – seventeen, eighteen, nineteen. Perhaps 40% of them are male. Lots of them are international students. China’s very well represented here, for instance. My job doesn’t really have a dress code. We wear everything from suits to shorts and T-shirts. As long as we’re not offensive, no one’s worried. And I do have a few low-cut tops. I often don’t really think about it: as long as my bra’s not showing, it can’t be too bad, right? Except there’s this one Empire-waisted blouse that I always forget about. Somehow, I don’t know how, whether it’s the pattern or the cut of the neckline or what have you, it makes me look like the prow of a ship. Let me tell you, there are few things more irritating and embarrassing (and more embarrassing than irritating) than trying to have a consultation with a freshman boy who is firmly and fixedly staring at my cleavage _the entire time_. I wish I were kidding. A glance at the girls? That’s fine. They’re large. They’re fabulous. I know it. I don’t assume that you’re going to keep your eyes off (though men who manage to get through five minutes’ conversation with no more than a brief glance get bonus points). I will probably notice and probably not judge if you glance down every once in a while. I would, too. They’re really nice. I don’t mistake it for flirting or attraction. But if you try skeeving on me (skeeving defined as “talking to my breasts and hanging around me for no particular reason when I’m neither inviting nor receptive”), you won’t get anywhere and I’ll start pulling out the button-ups and Amish tops. Plus: you say we are more inviting toward men we find attractive. Is that somehow a bad thing? I’m carrying quite a few extra pounds apart from Thelma and Louise up here. I’m willing to bet you’d rather I didn’t hit on you or hover (balloon-like!) around your desk and distract you while you’re trying to work. You’re allowed not to be attracted to me. That’s fine. You really aren’t required to flirt with me or to look at me as if I’m appealing to you, and if I’m acting inappropriately, you have every right to call me on it. Typically, the men I’m attracted to are confident (Some of them are attractive, but I usually go for quirky-attractive rather than craggy and would go for David Tennant over Daniel Craig eight days out of seven. It’s amazing what a girl can find attractive, and for me it’s generally men who are optimistic, confident, pleasant, and funny). They don’t stare and drool because they don’t need to. They aren’t afraid that these are the last breasts they’ll see before the end of days. Take control of your actions. I don’t expect you to control your thoughts, but I expect you’ll find that women in the real world don’t act like the ones in that famous diet Coke commercial with the construction workers. Publicly, anyway. Privately, we may gossip to our friends about how nice your shoulders are. Or your hands. Or even your rear. But we don’t tend to stare: we glance and use our peripheral vision and remember these when doing our daydreaming. By and large, we’re subtle. And men, too, are subtle about it by and large (Hehe. About tit. By and **large** ). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/351 "2013-01-29T09:35:45Z")
Aji, if you think that staring is wrong, what exactly are you arguing about here? Nobody on this thread has said a glance is wrong; nobody has said men should be mind-wiped for noticing boobs; everybody has said glance, don’t stare. Look back at the thread and what people have actually posted rather than focusing on your own ridiculous caricatures. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/352 "2013-01-29T13:11:32Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Aji, if you think that staring is wrong, what exactly are you arguing about here? > > Nobody on this thread has said a glance is wrong; nobody has said men should be mind-wiped for noticing boobs; everybody has said glance, don’t stare. Look back at the thread and what people have actually posted rather than focusing on your own ridiculous caricatures. I’m curious about this, too. This discussion was mostly hilarious until Ají and others confessed to telling women to cover themselves, that’s when the shitstorm began. His POV seems to have evolved from this: > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Up to a point maybe (depending on what “normally dressed” means), but it’s not true. If I wear a hat with 79 blinking lights I cannot say “the problem is with you” if you get distracted. Women’s (or men’s) bodies are not sacred vessels that cannot even be thought of in an incorrect fashion. if a coworker bringd a Raiders necktie, can’t I ask him about the playoffs? > > I’ve told friends and coworkers to “cover the girls a bit” because I respect them not because i want to control women’s bodies. I’ll say it again (speaking only for myself) because he and **Fotheringay-Phipps** seem deaf to dissension, but if what I am wearing meets dress code, is similar to what other modern women are wearing, and doesn’t draw negative attention from the other men in the building, I really don’t care if one guy in 1,000 is “distracted” or rendered boorish in my presence. Never in my life has a man considered telling me to cover up so that he can conduct himself politely and professionally in my presence. Unless that man is doing me a kindness by warning me that I missed a button, that kind of corrective behavior shows an appalling lack of manners and social cluelessness. This thread went weird fast, didn’t? Never expected a “hey, no fair, I was peeping those” to veer towards “better cover those up if you know what’s good for you, little lady”. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/353 "2013-01-29T13:51:43Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Aji, if you think that staring is wrong, what exactly are you arguing about here? > > Nobody on this thread has said a glance is wrong; nobody has said men should be mind-wiped for noticing boobs; everybody has said glance, don’t stare. Look back at the thread and what people have actually posted rather than focusing on your own ridiculous caricatures. I was instructed on post 295 "_As an adult, you should be able to walk through an office full of buck-naked supermodels without batting an eye or dropping your gaze._ " and then to follow a womaniser-molester-assassin as a role model. > [@Troppus](#): > > I’m curious about this, too. This discussion was mostly hilarious until Ají and others confessed to telling women to cover themselves, that’s when the shitstorm began. His POV seems to have evolved from this: > > I’ll say it again (speaking only for myself) because he and **Fotheringay-Phipps** seem deaf to dissension, but if what I am wearing meets dress code, is similar to what other modern women are wearing, and doesn’t draw negative attention from the other men in the building, I really don’t care if one guy in 1,000 is “distracted” or rendered boorish in my presence. Never in my life has a man considered telling me to cover up so that he can conduct himself politely and professionally in my presence. Unless that man is doing me a kindness by warning me that I missed a button, that kind of corrective behavior shows an appalling lack of manners and social cluelessness. > > This thread went weird fast, didn’t? Never expected a “hey, no fair, I was peeping those” to veer towards “better cover those up if you know what’s good for you, little lady”. When I said “telling a friend to cover up” it was interpreted that it was because I couldn’t control myself; it is a nice gesture towards a friend; not that I couldn’t controlmyself. Somehow, my tiniest dissent with the majority opinion turned me into an uncontrolable rapist. > [@colander](#): > > So what? India had a female prime minister. Doesn’t mean a damn thing for the rank-and-file women of the country. Anyway, I’m not saying you’re sexist because I know that you live in Latin America. I’m saying you’re sexist because you keep posting sexist things. You’re welcome! No, sorry, you said “Maybe it is not this guy’s fault he is such a backwards Billy. Let’s face it, Latin America sucks rocks when it comes to gender issues.” you just realised you went into ethnic stereotype territory and are backing up. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/354 "2013-01-29T14:12:35Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > When I said “telling a friend to cover up” it was interpreted that it was because I couldn’t control myself; it is a nice gesture towards a friend; not that I couldn’t controlmyself. Somehow, my tiniest dissent with the majority opinion turned me into an uncontrolable rapist. Did you say, “Hey girl, I don’t know if you checked yourself in a mirror, but that button ‘under the shelf’ there is gapping in a big way and you might want to grab a safety pin,” or was it more like, “Whoa, cleavage?! Put on a sweater!” Because the latter - unless seriously, literally, the entire office is trying to figure out how to address the extreme dress code violation - is kind of like telling a tall woman that she’s awfully tall. She knows. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/355 "2013-01-29T14:34:06Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Did you say, “Hey girl, I don’t know if you checked yourself in a mirror, but that button ‘under the shelf’ there is gapping in a big way and you might want to grab a safety pin,” or was it more like, “Whoa, cleavage?! Put on a sweater!” Because the latter - unless seriously, literally, the entire office is trying to figure out how to address the extreme dress code violation - is kind of like telling a tall woman that she’s awfully tall. She knows. Since I’d only do it with somebody I know enough, it goes (discreetly if there’s other people) like this “Suzie… the girls”; which means “Suzie, since I know you I’d think you don’t want to be showing that much here, why don’t you give he girls a check” and not “cover thyself, whore of Babylon, or forever suffer in the fires of the Gehenna” or “cover yourself because if I continue masturbating to your tits I’m gonna dehidrate”. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/356 "2013-01-29T14:49:15Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > No, sorry, you said “Maybe it is not this guy’s fault he is such a backwards Billy. Let’s face it, Latin America sucks rocks when it comes to gender issues.” you just realised you went into ethnic stereotype territory and are backing up. I’m not backing off of anything I’ve said. Your gross beliefs are at least partially a function of the culture you were raised in. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/357 "2013-01-29T15:46:18Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I’m not backing off of anything I’ve said. Your gross beliefs are at least partially a function of the culture you were raised in. Could you point out which specific gross belief you find the most objectionable? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/358 "2013-01-29T16:05:56Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Who can disagree that talking into our leering at a women’s chest is socially unacceptable behaviour ? MRAs aren’t concerned about the right to stare at your ta-tas unfettered, get over yourselves seriously. MRAs are about true equality for men which isn’t quite there yet. e.g. Divorce, custody issues, reproductive rights etc… Your off, way off. You may attribute noble motives to yourself and for the sake of politeness I will not gainsay you. You know best what you do. _Age quod agis_. All I ever see of MRAs, though, are the shitheads who troll feminist blogs and mansplain women’s issues to women while devaluing women’s own perspectives on women’s issues. Mainly: our bodies, our choices, and our personal security. If you do not perpetrate this shoddy behavior, consider yourself unaccused. Although “get over yourself” is too often characteristic of the shoddy discourse used by misogynists to devalue women’s perspectives. Might want to watch that if you intend to maintain a nobly righteous profile, just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/359 "2013-01-29T18:24:37Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’ll say it again (speaking only for myself) because he and **Fotheringay-Phipps** seem deaf to dissension, but if what I am wearing meets dress code, is similar to what other modern women are wearing, and doesn’t draw negative attention from the other men in the building, I really don’t care if one guy in 1,000 is “distracted” or rendered boorish in my presence. You are weaseling here. To my knowledge no one has claimed that anyone who dresses in the way you describe needs to worry about what anyone else thinks. And certainly not me, at any rate. We are discussing women who push the envelope. Per my experience with professional circles in the NY/NJ area, showing cleavage - which is what this thread is about, per the title and OP - in a professional setting is very much the exception. And just to make sure, I did a bit of a search and it seems to confirm my impressions. See for example: [9 Things Your Coworkers Won’t Tell You](http://www.womansday.com/life/etiquette-manners/coworkers-wont-tell-you) > [@](#): > > Certain items, like low-rider pants that reveal a bit of bum every time you lean over and tops that show more cleavage than your average cocktail dress, are always work-inappropriate, no matter what the specific dress code states. “Unless you work for tips, no cleavage in the office,” says etiquette consultant Jodi Smith, author of The Etiquette Book: A Complete Guide to Modern Manners. “This means you should cover your boobs, butt and toes.” While dress sandals might be acceptable in some casual offices come spring, flip-flops are generally a no-no. It’s also important to make sure your professional attire fits properly and looks polished. “Clothes that are too tight can distract, and clothes with rips in them—no matter how trendy—will look unprofessional unless you work at a hair salon or some other place where they play Adele over the P.A.,” says Alford. Or [Specifics for women’s business casual](http://www.career.vt.edu/JobSearchGuide/BusinessCasualAttire.html#WOMEN) > [@](#): > > Fit should not be tight. Cleavage is not appropriate to business and job search occasions. Or: [What Not To Wear To Work](http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/22/office-fashion-sexy-forbes-woman-style-clothes.html) > [@](#): > > Experts agree that one of the biggest fashion mistakes women make, for example, is showing too much cleavage. > > “It’s distracting and inappropriate in a business environment,” says Ginger Burr, president of Total Image Consultants in Lynn, Mass., and author of Fashion Secrets Mother Never Taught You. There are any number of similar sources. And that’s the type of situation this thread is about AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/360 "2013-01-29T19:05:50Z")
Sure. But at least in my case, I’ve had the ogling and staring happen with no cleavage at all, or with the kind of cleavage that the angle has to be right to get a peek. The shirt I am wearing today, for instance. Last years version of this. [http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/classiques-entier-ruched-waist-double-knit-top/3344372?origin=category&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=&resultback=0](http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/classiques-entier-ruched-waist-double-knit-top/3344372?origin=category&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=&resultback=0) Now, I happen to be rather chesty. I’m also, as I pointed out above thread “of a certain age”. To top it off, ive been told that im intimidating, haughty, and unapproachable to men. in other words, I’m no longer and easily cowed 22 year old. And yet there are two gentlemen in the office who even in this shirt look at me like I’m a wounded gazelle and they are a hungry lion. My cocktail dresses tend to be more revealing than anything I’d wear to work. They are almost universally bought for date night with the husband. Like this. [http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/donna-ricco-ruched-empire-stretch-satin-dress/3029114?origin=category&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=&resultback=0](http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/donna-ricco-ruched-empire-stretch-satin-dress/3029114?origin=category&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=&resultback=0). I’m a believer in date night with my husband should involve dressing up for my husband. He enjoys my cleavage. Now I don’t think either of those outfits are work inappropriate (though I wouldn’t weat the second to work myself, I see a lot of women who do, and who are Corporate Officers, so it hasn’t been career limiting). And yet, I’m still obviously a “distraction” wearing them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=19)