# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/401 "2013-02-04T16:49:56Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > You tell us if we display it, you’re going to ogle. Then you tell us because we don’t display it, you’re going to ogle. > > So which is it? Do we cover the cleavage up or do we give it more exposure? Which one will stop y’all from ogling? :dubious: I was just responding to your mistaken attempt to prove that the desire to look at women is not genetic. But if you insist on making it into some lesson about how to stop men from ogling, I guess the lesson is that if you dress more provocatively than the standard - whatever that standard happens to be at that time and place - then you’re more likely to be ogled. If the standard is covering ankles, then revealing ankles would be included. If the standard is to reveal ankles and cover cleavage, then revealing ankles is not more likely to trigger ogling, but revealing cleavage is. [No guarantees, of course.] ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/402 "2013-02-04T16:58:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I was just responding to your mistaken attempt to prove that the desire to look at women is not genetic. > > But if you insist on making it into some lesson about how to stop men from ogling, I guess the lesson is that if you dress more provocatively than the standard - whatever that standard happens to be at that time and place - then you’re more likely to be ogled. If the standard is covering ankles, then revealing ankles would be included. If the standard is to reveal ankles and cover cleavage, then revealing ankles is not more likely to trigger ogling, but revealing cleavage is. > > [No guarantees, of course.] And if the woman is more buxom than standard? More attractive than standard? Fits the ogler’s type more than the standard? If the woman happens to be seated at her desk while the ogler stands, thus providing a non-standard view down her shirt? Whose fault is boorish behavior then? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/403 "2013-02-04T17:06:31Z")
Wow, this is still going on? No matter other opinions on the subject, I think it’s pretty easy to tell the difference between a woman who wants to be ogled and one who doesn’t. There could be all sorts of disagreement over what constitutes a glance, noticing, distraction, etc., but ogling is bad behavior at the office. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/404 "2013-02-04T17:46:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Wow, this is still going on? No matter other opinions on the subject, I think it’s pretty easy to tell the difference between a woman who wants to be ogled and one who doesn’t. There could be all sorts of disagreement over what constitutes a glance, noticing, distraction, etc., but ogling is bad behavior at the office. It’s pretty much bad behavior anywhere short of a strip club or the beach, but I suspect the same handful of guys will continue to claim entitlement or helplessness when they encounter cleavage at the workplace. Though I’m hopeful the trend will self-limit, as the uncouth are far less likely to breed future oglers than their more savvy counterparts. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/405 "2013-02-04T17:55:19Z")
I’m sorry, are we disparaging glances, or full out, drool-dangling, mouth agape ogling? You really can’t fault a guy for glancing. If he’s making a photo-square with his thumbs and pointers and making camera click noises… I’m right there with you though. I guess the closest example would be if a guy’s fly was down? Not the best analogy… ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/406 "2013-02-04T18:04:11Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I’m sorry, are we disparaging glances, or full out, drool-dangling, mouth agape ogling? You really can’t fault a guy for glancing. If he’s making a photo-square with his thumbs and pointers and making camera click noises… I’m right there with you though. I’ve read a lot of things in this thread that make me think some slack jawed oglers have ruined it for the rest of us. We can’t help noticing, we’re hard wired that way. We’re also hard wired as hunters looking for prey, but if you spot a deer and jump up and down shouting “whoopee!” you aren’t going to bag a lot of game, and the deer will learn to stay further away from all hunters. It’s an analogy ladies, I’m not equating women with prey. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/407 "2013-02-04T18:27:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’ve read a lot of things in this thread that make me think some slack jawed oglers have ruined it for the rest of us. We can’t help noticing, we’re hard wired that way. We’re also hard wired as hunters looking for prey, but if you spot a deer and jump up and down shouting “whoopee!” you aren’t going to bag a lot of game, and the deer will learn to stay further away from all hunters. > > It’s an analogy ladies, I’m not equating women with prey. “Hard-wired” is really getting some play here even though it’s completely indefensible. You’re hard-wired to procure food and shelter, yet you aren’t stealing and hoarding groceries, squatting in the homes and businesses of others, taking food from your coworker’s desks, right? Hard-wired to defend yourself from predators, yet most of you cohabit with a dog or cat. Got any other primitive urges that cause you to behave in threatening, creepy, and boorish ways you’d like to confess? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/408 "2013-02-04T19:29:23Z")
Ok. TriPolar might use the hard wired excuse. I’m not going to hide behind it. I look because I want to. It’s probably most analogous to when you buy a new car and then all of a sudden you “see” your car everywhere. I do it because I want to, but again only to steal glances because the rational part of my brain says “Ok. Enough. Get back to being a higher life form”. And I’m pretty sure that’s what 99% of the guys here defending staring is trying to say in each of our own clumsy way. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/409 "2013-02-04T19:37:57Z")
And I think most women here have said glancing is not the problem, is when they notice and feel uncomfortable that there is a problem. Because for the most part, you have to be pretty obvious about what you’re doing. I know some of my male friends (even co-workers) have noticed what I have. They don’t make me feel uncomfortable, and are quite able to continue working or sparring or training with me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/410 "2013-02-04T19:38:55Z")
I’m not using an excuse. I think it’s unquestionable that men notice women, and breasts are a clear distinquishing feature of women. However, I didn’t say that was an excuse for staring or ogling. If you read past ‘hard-wired’ in my post I made that very clear, and illustrated why it’s stupid behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/411 "2013-02-04T21:30:52Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Ok. TriPolar might use the hard wired excuse. I’m not going to hide behind it. I look because I want to. It’s probably most analogous to when you buy a new car and then all of a sudden you “see” your car everywhere. I do it because I want to, but again only to steal glances because the rational part of my brain says “Ok. Enough. Get back to being a higher life form”. > > And I’m pretty sure that’s what 99% of the guys here defending staring is trying to say in each of our own clumsy way. Maybe that’s what _you_ meant, but the others? I don’t think that’s it at all. I think the handful of guys who feel as though they are being denied cleavage while other more appealing guys get an eyeful are just pissed and reaching for reasons as to why they, too, deserve cleavage. And those guys who can’t get their fair share, well, by golly, they’ll just chastise the breasted ones for their fashion sense and warn them to cover up. Seems counter-intuitive if you really like boobs, though. (Slut-shaming; you’re doing it wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/412 "2013-02-05T06:05:53Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ok. Let’s assume, for the span of this post, that you are correct. Men are genetically wired, chock full of testosterone, to ogle a woman’s breasts. We should not expect men to treat me as anything other than a tool for copulation, because that’s just how they’re genetically wired. > > How is that my problem? Why do I have to change my behavior because you can’t control your genetic imperative? > > It’s not acceptable. Perhaps some people are genetically wired to be murderers. It doesn’t make it okay to murder. Perhaps some people are genetically wired to find children sexually attractive. It doesn’t make it okay to molest children. > > No. > > If you can’t stop yourself from ogling women (don’t switch it from “ogle” to “look” now, that’s moving the goalposts, and I’m going to hold you to what you said first) then you should create yourself a life that doesn’t include being around women. Not by limiting women, but by limiting yourself. > > So you’re saying it’s \*not \*a genetic imperative, then? Because if you’re going to claim that Victorian men were genetically wired to ogle women’s ankles, but modern men aren’t, I’m afraid you’ve got a lot of googling to do to prove that men’s genetic wiring has changed much in 150 years. If you don’t like men looking/ oggling, it is your problem. Till it becomes a felony, looking isn’t against the law, and men will continue to do so. Why do you think women in some countries have to wear a burka? Hint- it’s not to keep warm. Men do look at ankles, and legs, and arms, and waists, and every other part of an attractive woman’s anatomy. As a “leg” man myself, a nice leg/ ankle can be a real turn on. Men’s genetic wiring hasn’t changed since they were hunting mammoths. You can take men out of the cave, but you can’t take the cave out of the man. I think some may be confusing social mores with genetics. BTW, to say that it is difficult to look good/ well dressed without exposing cleavage to some extent is ridiculous. Asian women in their own countries can look amazingly attractive while covered to the neck- not even a glimpse when they bend over either. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/413 "2013-02-05T06:12:27Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > If you don’t like men looking/ oggling, it is your problem. Till it becomes a felony, looking isn’t against the law, and men will continue to do so. > Why do you think women in some countries have to wear a burka? Hint- it’s not to keep warm. > > Men do look at ankles, and legs, and arms, and waists, and every other part of an attractive woman’s anatomy. > As a “leg” man myself, a nice leg/ ankle can be a real turn on. > > Men’s genetic wiring hasn’t changed since they were hunting mammoths. You can take men out of the cave, but you can’t take the cave out of the man. > I think some may be confusing social mores with genetics. > > BTW, to say that it is difficult to look good/ well dressed without exposing cleavage to some extent is ridiculous. Asian women in their own countries can look amazingly attractive while covered to the neck- not even a glimpse when they bend over either. What other behaviours of yours are you not responsible for? It’s been pointed out before that much of the ‘cave’ has indeed been removed from society. And most men responding to this thread feel perfectly capable of moderating their behaviour in public. Your insistance that it’s men’s wiring just isn’t true, it’s an excuse and not a very good one. So what’s wrong with _you_? Why can’t \*you \*help _yourself_? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/414 "2013-02-05T07:30:33Z")
I’m glad to know that all the men I’ve known in my life, for the most part have been able to control themselves. Wow. Those freaks of nature, I need to take all of them out to dinner. Now I just need to figure out how to pay for several hundreds… ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/415 "2013-02-05T08:03:13Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > What other behaviours of yours are you not responsible for? > > It’s been pointed out before that much of the ‘cave’ has indeed been removed from society. And most men responding to this thread feel perfectly capable of moderating their behaviour in public. Your insistance that it’s men’s wiring just isn’t true, it’s an excuse and not a very good one. > > So what’s wrong with _you_? Why can’t \*you \*help _yourself_? Well, it is in our wiring. The thing is most of us have this under control by adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/416 "2013-02-05T08:36:43Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Well, it is in our wiring. The thing is most of us have this under control by adulthood. Well, exactly. Lots of crappy stuff is in our wiring - that’s why we have laws and manners and workplace rules and stuff like that. Conventions of behaviour that most of us learn as part of growing up. I’m sick of the decent men I know (both here and IRL) being labelled as liars and letches. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/417 "2013-02-05T15:07:57Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Men’s genetic wiring hasn’t changed since they were hunting mammoths. You can take men out of the cave, but you can’t take the cave out of the man. > I think some may be confusing social mores with genetics. Is that so? Then how do semi-nude tribes in the Amazon, Africa, and the South Pacific get any hunting or gathering down with all those naked hooters bouncing around them? Do you suppose the men of these tribes have managed to evolve socially and culturally far beyond some of the men in this thread? Or is your “theory” actually an excuse for your own lack of self-control? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/418 "2013-02-05T15:57:10Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s pretty much bad behavior anywhere short of a strip club or the beach, but I suspect the same handful of guys will continue to claim entitlement or helplessness when they encounter cleavage at the workplace. So can I show up to work naked and insist nobody look at me? If you don’t want it seen, cover it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/419 "2013-02-05T15:58:18Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Is that so? Then how do semi-nude tribes in the Amazon, Africa, and the South Pacific get any hunting or gathering down with all those naked hooters bouncing around them? Do you suppose the men of these tribes have managed to evolve socially and culturally far beyond some of the men in this thread? Or is your “theory” actually an excuse for your own lack of self-control? They do it because they’re used to seeing them all the time. So the solution would be to come to work topless for a while until it’s no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/420 "2013-02-05T16:01:03Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > And I think most women here have said glancing is not the problem, is when they notice and feel uncomfortable that there is a problem. Because for the most part, you have to be pretty obvious about what you’re doing. I know some of my male friends (even co-workers) have noticed what I have. They don’t make me feel uncomfortable, and are quite able to continue working or sparring or training with me. Sure, but there’s a fine line between the two sometimes. So does the act of exposing it mean you want them to see it? Or just that you want them to see it, but not know they are looking? But you know they are looking already. So why does a woman expose her cleavage, exactly? I think that’s the question that needs to be answered. Why? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=22)