# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/441 "2013-02-05T19:52:20Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > > [@WhyNot](#): > > > > Just because I want people to see my cleavage doesn’t mean I want you to see my cleavage. > > Well, that’s nice. Except I can still see it. Unless you put a note on it that says “don’t see this unless you’re (insert name)” you can expect everyone to see it. That’s a law of physics. Sure, a note would work. Or _maybe_ (and I’m just spitballing here) women could show their cleavage when they want people to see it or don’t care if they do, and if they _don’t_ want someone to see it, they could, say, cover it. I mean, call me crazy, but that seems to be the simplest, most obvious solution. Who could have any problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/442 "2013-02-05T19:57:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So you just go along with your sexualization? > > And do you not see how this is not only inviting, but actually justifying the ogling? Failure of Socialization a haiku by colander what the hell is this seriously, what is this where have we gone wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/443 "2013-02-05T19:57:58Z")
> [@colander](#): > > what “For women, that means a requirement to dress in a somewhat sexualized manner.” Well, if you don’t like dressing in a sexualized manner, refuse to. Feminism 101. Going along with a patriarchal expectation is, well, going along with a patriarchal expectation. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/444 "2013-02-05T20:00:09Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Or stop staring. Pretty simple, really. Where in my post did I write I was “staring”? I simply explained the situation and what I did/said to ease the tension and it worked. I “dress to the left”, which means my package, no matter how much I try to keep it centered, will drift to the inner left of my upper thigh, creating a bulge there. I do not feel the need to tug and rearrange and don’t. Look at it or don’t. All the same to me. Q ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/445 "2013-02-05T20:01:26Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Or stop showing off your private areas. Just as simple. > > Saying “don’t stare” is not an answer. It’s not the least bit productive. There’s a line between when it’s reasonable to say that, and when it’s not. There is really no rational discussion to be had with someone who refuses to read the thread and jumps in to “play devil’s advocate” and build naked strawmen. Sure it is. Don’t stare or go somewhere else. The hairdresser’s manager can decide whether or not her appearance is suitable for work. If 99% of her clientele is comfortable with her style and only one strange guy comments on her breasts, it’s safe to say that one guy is out of line. The client would probably be better served by a male barber. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/446 "2013-02-05T20:03:26Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > I simply explained the situation and what I did/said to ease the tension and it worked. I seriously doubt your comments and behavior put her at ease. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/447 "2013-02-05T20:04:32Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > Where in my post did I write I was “staring”? > > I simply explained the situation and what I did/said to ease the tension and it worked. > > I “dress to the left”, which means my package, no matter how much I try to keep it centered, will drift to the inner left of my upper thigh, creating a bulge there. I do not feel the need to tug and rearrange and don’t. Look at it or don’t. All the same to me. > > Q Careful Quasi, she’s got scissors and a razor. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/448 "2013-02-05T20:05:41Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Failure of Socialization > a haiku by colander > > what the hell is this > > seriously, what is this > > where have we gone wrong. I love you, never stop posting. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/449 "2013-02-05T20:06:24Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > Okay, let’s see if I have this right: I finally find a place where they can cut my hair the way I like it, but _I_ have to leave and go someplace else because _she’s_ uncomfortable and starts tugging at her shirt to the point where I feel I _have_ to say something?😕 > > Q I don’t understand why you feel the need to comment about someone adjusting their shirt. What in the world do you think is going to happen if you don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/450 "2013-02-05T20:12:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Careful Quasi, she’s got scissors and a razor. Who, **TriP**? The hairdresser or **Troppus**? 😉 Carry on, boys and girls.😃 Q ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/451 "2013-02-05T20:18:23Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > There is really no rational discussion to be had with someone who refuses to read the thread I did, but I admit not closely. But that’s a lame excuse. I think my points haven’t been expressed yet. Sorry if they have. > [@](#): > > and jumps in to “play devil’s advocate” and build naked strawmen. It’s not a strawman. Just the opposite. I know you do NOT believe that everyone can go to work naked. That’s why I brought it up - you have standards of dress too, and you’d question others who don’t meet them. So going around saying you can do whatever you want doesn’t cut it. There are standards, and this is about what they are. > [@](#): > > Sure it is. Don’t stare or go somewhere else. The hairdresser’s manager can decide whether or not her appearance is suitable for work. If 99% of her clientele is comfortable with her style and only one strange guy comments on her breasts, it’s safe to say that one guy is out of line. The client would probably be better served by a male barber. Okay, so if 50% of men stare, or 75% - and the manager notices and tells her to cover up - what do you say then? Because that makes my point. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/452 "2013-02-05T20:20:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I did, but I admit not closely. But that’s a lame excuse. I think my points haven’t been expressed yet. Sorry if they have. > > It’s not a strawman. Just the opposite. I know you do NOT believe that everyone can go to work naked. That’s why I brought it up - you have standards of dress too, and you’d question others who don’t meet them. So going around saying you can do whatever you want doesn’t cut it. There are standards, and this is about what they are. > > Okay, so if 50% of men stare, or 75% - and the manager notices and tells her to cover up - what do you say then? Because that makes my point. You have a point? Pray tell, what is it? Spell it out. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/453 "2013-02-05T20:27:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > “For women, that means a requirement to dress in a somewhat sexualized manner.” > > Well, if you don’t like dressing in a sexualized manner, refuse to. Feminism 101. Going along with a patriarchal expectation is, well, going along with a patriarchal expectation. Um, Mr. Strongarm? I was wondering, how do we switch into a different class section? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/454 "2013-02-05T20:32:53Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You have a point? Pray tell, what is it? Spell it out. Sigh. I can’t tell if you’re pretending not to get it or really don’t get it. In this case - if lots of men find it uncomfortable or distracted or whatever near the cleavage - and that prompts the manager to change the dress code - what would you say to the manager? Would you say the same things you’ve said to me? Would you say you shouldn’t be judged? Would you call him a slut-shamer? There’s a dress code. There are parts you can expose, and parts you can’t. There are parts people should ignore in public, and parts you can’t possibly blame people for noticing if they are exposed. This discussion is about whether the tops of the breast should be considered in or out of that zone. Nothing more. And reasonable people can disagree about that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/455 "2013-02-05T20:34:10Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Um, Mr. Strongarm? I was wondering, how do we switch into a different class section? Young lady, you can’t come into my classroom at all dressed like _that._ ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/456 "2013-02-05T20:38:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Young lady, you can’t come into my classroom at all dressed like _that._ Your posts feel greasy ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/457 "2013-02-05T20:41:11Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sigh. > > I can’t tell if you’re pretending not to get it or really don’t get it. > > In this case - if lots of men find it uncomfortable or distracted or whatever near the cleavage - and that prompts the manager to change the dress code - what would you say to the manager? Would you say the same things you’ve said to me? Would you say you shouldn’t be judged? Would you call him a slut-shamer? > > There’s a dress code. There are parts you can expose, and parts you can’t. There are parts people should ignore in public, and parts you can’t possibly blame people for noticing if they are exposed. > > This discussion is about whether the tops of the breast should be considered in or out of that zone. Nothing more. And reasonable people can disagree about that. K, let’s repeat the same thing seven to twenty more times for no other reason than to humor the guy who refuses to read the thread. “If we women adhere to the dress code of our workplaces and obey decency laws, then oglers had better learn to conduct themselves with discretion and poise else we’ll go to HR with complaints about boorish behavior.” This goes for all women regardless of size, shape, or level of personal attractiveness. That clear enough for you? We’re not changing the rules because one creepy horndog can’t behave. Creepy horndog can GTFO. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/458 "2013-02-05T20:44:11Z")
This is a normal, even healthy, description of male sexual attraction: > [@pancakes3](#): > > I look at cleavage, butts, smiles, hair, necks, legs, and cameltoes on a daily basis. Fortunately I do it less now than when I was 16. I don’t stare, because I’m not a gorilla. I glance. I acknowledge. If it’s really nice, I might go back for seconds. \*\*I don’t break my concentration on the task that I’m doing. I don’t comment about it. Just taking in the scenery. \*\* Comparing male sexual urges to the addiction urges of addicts or alcoholics is NOT normal or healthy. Comparing the male sexual urge to the ‘appetite’ of starving prisoners toiling in a Soviet labor camp is not normal or healthy. **Doggo** asking women to limit their scope or dress a certain way so that he doesn’t behave like cavemen is imposing his sexual urges on women. \* His urges are his problem\*. \*\* Doggo\*\* claims his ‘biological imperative’ makes him want to copulate with as many women as possible. He is free to imagine copulation with everyone female he comes into contact with, when that imagination makes him unable to treat women respectfully or distracts him from his task at hand - _then he has personal problem_. I encourage\*\* Doggo\*\* to study a bit of anthropology, women covering-up is hardly the norm through human history (in many cultures women bared their breasts just like men). Even in the Victorian era where the ankle was highly sexualized women regularly bared cleavage with the aide of corsets and bustiers. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But by that standard, women could show up to work naked, as I’ve pointed out. I don’t think any woman here thinks women are entitled to that. Nor would any woman blame a man for his reaction to it, I would hope. > > It’s a simplistic standard that puts all the responsibility on one party and completely ignores the fact that dress standards are about more than ogling. Men can’t show up to work naked either, or expose certain parts, without expecting certain responses. I think you are arguing a strawman. I concur, you may need to re-read the thread. And please see: > [@KarlGrenze](#): > > And for the nth time, most women have said “glance OK”. All they are asking is respect and professional treatment. Shouldn’t be too difficult, and should be required, in an office environment. Some men in this thread are saying they are incapable of acting professional or respectfully (due to their “male genetic programming”:rolleyes:) around women who may show cleavage. Coming to work naked is not the same thing. I think cleavage is inappropriate in the professional work place the same way wearing ink stained clothes, clothes covered in pet hair, flip-flops, board shorts, pajamas, gym clothes, swimsuits, denim overalls, a prom dress, etc, is inappropriate in the professional work place. It is not culturally accepted professional attire. Claiming that cleavage drives men to such distraction that they can not get their work done or treat their female co-worker or friends with respect is ludicrous. How do these men manage outside of work? Cleavage is bound to be found at the beach, the store, the street, the gym, the movies, the theater, on TV, etc? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/459 "2013-02-05T20:46:30Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > K, let’s repeat the same thing seven to twenty more times for no other reason than to humor the guy who refuses to read the thread. “If we women adhere to the dress code of our workplaces and obey decency laws, then oglers had better learn to conduct themselves with discretion and poise else we’ll go to HR with complaints about boorish behavior.” This goes for all women regardless of size, shape, or level of personal attractiveness. > > That clear enough for you? We’re not changing the rules because one creepy horndog can’t behave. Creepy horndog can GTFO. WERD! And bears repeating +10443859947484 ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/460 "2013-02-05T20:48:54Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > K, let’s repeat the same thing seven to twenty more times for no other reason than to humor the guy who refuses to read the thread. “If we women adhere to the dress code of our workplaces and obey decency laws, then oglers had better learn to conduct themselves with discretion and poise else we’ll go to HR with complaints about boorish behavior.” This goes for all women regardless of size, shape, or level of personal attractiveness. And that’s why I came here and challenged this stale thread - I’m saying that this isn’t about adhering to dress codes, it’s about whether the dress code is right, or whether it needs changing. I took the thread to a new level, and broke it out of its assumptions. > [@](#): > > That clear enough for you? We’re not changing the rules because one creepy horndog can’t behave. Creepy horndog can GTFO Well, no. You may not “horndog-shame” me. If one man can’t handle himself, maybe. But if most of the men in the office think it’s too much, maybe, just maybe, it’s too much. Maybe not - but it should be talked about, with women’s full input too, of course. Here’s an experiment you can do yourself. Not really, but in your head. Every day, come in to work with a few more millimeters off the top. Shorten your skirt by the same amount too. Little by little. At some point, you will think you have gone too far. Not someone else - you. And that’s fine. Now, others in the office, men and women alike, will also think you’ve gone too far at some point. The question is, did they think you went too far the same time you did, or a week ago? And that’s all this is about - agreeing on the details of standards. Nothing more. Management can make its own rules, but the point of those rules is to make the workplace comfortable, so if the rules aren’t working, maybe she or he should change those rules. None of this is really controversial when you stop and listen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=24)