# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/481 "2013-02-06T00:15:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If you dress in a way that causes problems for alot of people, maybe it means you should reconsider. YES! Absolutely! Sure, I agree. But **lance** , darling…would you please find the first person in the thread who said that a majority of men, or “alot of people” are ogling tits at the office? I think (I’m not entirely sure, because this thread is 4354536345 posts in now, and I’m too disgusted to go back and read every single one) you’ll find it’s you. This thread was started by a man wanting to know why women wear cleavage and then cover up when he’s talking to them, but don’t cover up when lots of other men talk to them. Then it went on to include a lot of men who don’t ogle tits, and a troglodyte here and there claiming genetic imperative to ogle. The entire point and progression of the thread has been how it’s NOT a lot of men who have this problem or make women feel uncomfortable, but a few of them make us want to cover up. A few of them, which is how we women know it’s not our fault and it’s entirely possible to have a professional relationship with a woman, despite the fact that you’d like to titty fuck her on the copier. So, thank you for your contribution, but what the hell does it have to do with THIS thread? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/482 "2013-02-06T00:29:02Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > So, thank you for your contribution, but what the hell does it have to do with THIS thread? I think he’s saying that since he’s apparently one of the guys we deny cleavage access to, then by golly nobody gets to enjoy it. (Plus bonus chivalry points if he claims he wants the dress code tightened for the protection of the wimmin.) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/483 "2013-02-06T00:37:39Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > (Plus bonus chivalry points if he claims he wants the dress code tightened for the protection of the wimmin.) Ooh! Ooh! We can send out a memo and title it “Burqas for Babes’ Boobies!” ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/484 "2013-02-06T00:46:55Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And what I’ve said, over and over, is that maybe dress codes should be changed sometimes. > > I’m not saying that it should be changed just for a few men, but I am saying that it is subject to change. And I am saying that men and women should both have a say in them. > > I don’t think this is controversial either - dress codes have changed alot in recent history. > > No, I am not defending ogling. > > Really not that controversial. And where, in the reality the rest of us share, is this NOT happening? Really. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/485 "2013-02-06T00:49:36Z")
Fwiw, 75% of the convos I have about a blouse too unbuttoned or a cleavage too deep is with female coworkers, not male. Covering up is much more an issue of maintaining professionalism. Now it might be to maintain professionalism because of unwanted sexual advances… but I believe the umbrella issue is professionalism ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/486 "2013-02-06T01:13:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, no, you’ve completely missed the point, and that’s because you have been too busy talking and being outraged and not spending enough time listening. > > But I’m glad you finally acknowledge that clothes are appropriate dress. That’s a start. After all, you wouldn’t be so ridiculous as to claim that a woman who walked naked in the street should expect no male (or otherwise) attention or notice. Would you be that ridiculous? Are you daft? Is that what’s wrong? Because, dude, you’re really damaging what little argument you had by persisting with this “naked” nonsense. If one person tells you you’re a drunk, you can probably ignore them. When it’s two, you may need to wonder if you should slow down. If it’s a whole freaking slew, put down the bottle and find a 12 step. And I’m not outraged in the least. I’m just hilariously amused that there are actually men in the 21st century who claim to not be able to control themselves, when every stinking male I’ve ever known (with the exception of super horny teenagers, mental deficients, elderly men who didn’t give a fuck any longer or reprobates of some manner) was capable of not leering at women’s cleavage, even if it was on display in any setting besides, say, a beach, Hooters or a pick-up game of mud wrestling. But I’ve decided you’re just having us on. Even the few hold outs that are on your “side” aren’t supporting your opinion. No one, that’s beyond 14, can seriously believe this that stringently. So, I’m bowing out and not feeding your abused complex, real or imagined, anymore. Have fun playing to the cheap seats. \< pulls sweatshirt closer over boobs \> I know you can’t help it. Poor dear. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/487 "2013-02-06T11:22:34Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > “Hard-wired” is really getting some play here even though it’s completely indefensible. You’re hard-wired to procure food and shelter, yet you aren’t stealing and hoarding groceries, squatting in the homes and businesses of others, taking food from your coworker’s desks, right? Hard-wired to defend yourself from predators, yet most of you cohabit with a dog or cat. Got any other primitive urges that cause you to behave in threatening, creepy, and boorish ways you’d like to confess? Why do you omit hard wired to reproduce? After food and shelter that would be right up there. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/488 "2013-02-06T11:25:51Z")
[quote=“EverwonderWhy, post:467, topic:647892”] Which illustrates my point, a dress code is not all about catering to the ‘uncontrollable male sex drive’. Wearing denim overalls to the opera or tennis shoes to a Las Vegas nightclub would likely lead one to be refused entry. It is not up to the standards of the venue, not because men are incapable of behaving normally and respectfully in the presence of cleavage (a little cleavage is likely to be present in almost every walk of life outside of church or the workplace). Rubbish. There is no requirement to show cleavage in public, ever. If you CHOOSE to do so, stop winging if men look at it. ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/489 "2013-02-06T11:37:54Z")
> [@colander](#): > > I don’t understand why you feel the need to comment about someone adjusting their shirt. What in the world do you think is going to happen if you don’t? Read my original post. It was to illustrate a point and I don’t think anything’s going to happen if I don’t. Why are you snarling at everything I write? ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/490 "2013-02-06T11:42:11Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Is that so? Then how do semi-nude tribes in the Amazon, Africa, and the South Pacific get any hunting or gathering down with all those naked hooters bouncing around them? Do you suppose the men of these tribes have managed to evolve socially and culturally far beyond some of the men in this thread? Or is your “theory” actually an excuse for your own lack of self-control? You seem to be confusing the desire to look at attractive parts of women with the need to copulate. If for some reason, necks were not allowed to be seen in your tribes, they would soon become erotic triggers. BTW, just because a man looks at breasts in a magazine etc doesn’t mean that he’s not capable of working. If that were the case, very little work would be done by men. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/491 "2013-02-06T14:14:59Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > You seem to be confusing the desire to look at attractive parts of women with the need to copulate. You seem to be confusing a Google search with the biology lesson you are sorely in need of: > [@Doggo](#): > > Surely even you can use google- 69,800,000 results about genetic programming of men and women, or are you going to claim that they are all made up? _You_ made the claim that men are genetically wired to stare at cleavage. You, personally, may be socially conditioned to find cleavage interesting, but the existence of productive topless tribes disprove your theory that women ought to be covered to the neck to avoid ogling by all the male primates in the world. Neither you nor any of your gawking brethren are “genetically wired” to stalk cleavage. > [@Doggo](#): > > Men’s genetic wiring hasn’t changed since they were hunting mammoths. You can take men out of the cave, but you can’t take the cave out of the man. Your theory, in scientific terms, is called "bullshit’. The biological imperative is not driven by the sight of a couple inches of mammary glands. > [@Doggo](#): > > Rubbish. There is no requirement to show cleavage in public, ever. > If you CHOOSE to do so, stop winging if men look at it. As we’ve discussed, the average man is able to conduct himself professionally and appropriately when he stumbles across a v-neck, a gap between the buttons, a seated co-worker, or a particularly busty gal in a turtleneck. We are meeting the dress code and the standards of public decency as well as dressing to suit the climate, current fashion, and our own personal comfort. If one occasional boor lacks self-control and makes a nuisance of himself (as I suspect you do) then we will out that boor, either by covering up, avoiding him, shooting a dirty look in his direction, complaining aloud, flipping him off, or seeking help from management. Shrug. You do it your way; we’ll do it our way. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/492 "2013-02-06T14:16:15Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ooh! Ooh! We can send out a memo and title it “Burqas for Babes’ Boobies!” Much like my “can you come to the office naked?” question was meant to be absurd, on purpose, so is “should we all wear burqas?” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/493 "2013-02-06T14:18:19Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Your theory, in scientific terms, is called "bullshit’. The biological imperative is not driven by the sight of a couple inches of mammary glands. Sure it is. > [@](#): > > As we’ve discussed, the average man is able to conduct himself professionally and appropriately when he stumbles across a v-neck, a gap between the buttons, a seated co-worker, or a particularly busty gal in a turtleneck. Yes, pretty much. But what if he weren’t? What if all of a sudden, every man had a severe problem with that? Is your dress code based on what men think and how they behave? Or your claim to dress however you want? Or something in the middle? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/494 "2013-02-06T14:20:48Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Is that so? Then how do semi-nude tribes in the Amazon, Africa, and the South Pacific get any hunting or gathering down with all those naked hooters bouncing around them? Do you suppose the men of these tribes have managed to evolve socially and culturally far beyond some of the men in this thread? Or is your “theory” actually an excuse for your own lack of self-control? So would you say that our culture should allow topless women in the workplace too? Should we evolve like they have? I’m not saying we shouldn’t, I’m just wondering what you think. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/495 "2013-02-06T14:21:22Z")
If every man suddenly had an uncontrollable urge to stare (not LOOK, STARE, there’s a difference and that’s what this thread is about), then eventually some women like me would start wearing more concealing clothes and you wouldn’t get to look at jack shit. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/496 "2013-02-06T14:23:50Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Are you daft? Is that what’s wrong? Because, dude, you’re really damaging what little argument you had by persisting with this “naked” nonsense. No, you’re just not much of a debater, and you’re blaming me. I’ve explained my point, more than once. And others have used the EXACT same technique, in the opposite direction, by saying “do you want women to wear burqas?” > [@](#): > > I’m just hilariously amused that there are actually men in the 21st century who claim to not be able to control themselves, I’m not saying that at all. Never once did. > [@](#): > > But I’ve decided you’re just having us on. Even the few hold outs that are on your “side” aren’t supporting your opinion. No one, that’s beyond 14, can seriously believe this that stringently. So, I’m bowing out and not feeding your abused complex, real or imagined, anymore. Have fun playing to the cheap seats. No, you just have no friggin’ idea what my opinion really is because you’re not listening. You’ve settled into certain assumptions and can’t handle me questioning them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/497 "2013-02-06T14:25:01Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > If every man suddenly had an uncontrollable urge to stare (not LOOK, STARE, there’s a difference and that’s what this thread is about), then eventually some women like me would start wearing more concealing clothes and you wouldn’t get to look at jack shit. > > Good job. Wait a minute. You’re saying that you would change how you dress, rather than condemning all men as pigs who can’t control themselves? Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/498 "2013-02-06T14:25:12Z")
Biotruths: the last resort of a desperate argument. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/499 "2013-02-06T14:27:13Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Fwiw, 75% of the convos I have about a blouse too unbuttoned or a cleavage too deep is with female coworkers, not male. Covering up is much more an issue of maintaining professionalism. Now it might be to maintain professionalism because of unwanted sexual advances… but I believe the umbrella issue is professionalism Now we’re getting somewhere. The next interesting question is why dressing oversexually is considered unprofessional. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/500 "2013-02-06T14:29:41Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Wait a minute. You’re saying that you would change how you dress, rather than condemning all men as pigs who can’t control themselves? > > Hmmm. If all men had a problem and couldn’t stop ogling you bet I would. But its certainly not the woman’s job to change her behavior because (in your absurd scenario) all men become pigs (which they certainly aren’t now). Everyone gets to choose how they would respond to the piggish behavior. I’m old enough that I have very little tolerance for the cry-baby antics of piggish males. So yes, I would dress in a more concealing manner if ALL men STARED. I’m not going to change my dress now, because ALL men aren’t STARING. And certainly, what I would do is not what all women would do, cause they are different people with different perspectives. I’m just not interested in the bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=26)