# Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892 "2013-01-21T07:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/501 "2013-02-06T14:30:50Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > YES! Absolutely! Sure, I agree. But **lance** , darling…would you please find the first person in the thread who said that a majority of men, or “alot of people” are ogling tits at the office? Nobody did. It was a rhetorical question, meant to demonstrate that dress codes and standards are not dictated by either sex, but are complicated social norms that everyone is involved in. Much like if a man showed up to work in a tanktop–a hairy man, of course–women (and men) would probably react in a disapproving manner. > [@](#): > > The entire point and progression of the thread has been how it’s NOT a lot of men who have this problem or make women feel uncomfortable, but a few of them make us want to cover up. A few of them, which is how we women know it’s not our fault Exactly. Which is why I asked “what if it were alot of men?” In that case, would you cover up? Or would you continue to declare that men should be professional and get over it? Is it only about majority rule, or what men think? ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/502 "2013-02-06T14:30:51Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Now we’re getting somewhere. > > The next interesting question is why dressing oversexually is considered unprofessional. STOP with this BULLSHIT. I am NOT dressing oversexually at work. and fuck you for implying it. I am dressed 100% appropriately and happen to have one co-worker (out of many) that cannot behave appropriately. It is not me. it is him. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/503 "2013-02-06T14:32:18Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > STOP with this BULLSHIT. I am NOT dressing oversexually at work. and fuck you for implying it. I am dressed 100% appropriately and happen to have one co-worker (out of many) that cannot behave appropriately. It is not me. it is him. STOP with this BULLSHIT. I did NOT say you were dressing oversexually at work! Nor anyone here! It’s called a HYPOTHETICAL, and it is another way people discuss issues. In this case, the hypothetical is what if standards changed so that what was once considered acceptable was changed to “oversexual.” Please don’t read so much into what I post. In turn, I will try to be much much more careful about avoiding confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/504 "2013-02-06T14:33:57Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > STOP with this BULLSHIT. I am NOT dressing oversexually at work. and fuck you for implying it. I am dressed 100% appropriately and happen to have one co-worker (out of many) that cannot behave appropriately. It is not me. it is him. He’s slut shaming, it’s the last resort of men who feel they are denied the same access to women that more socially competent men are. Plus, he didn’t read the thread, wherein every single woman participating has explained ad nauseum that we are meeting dress codes and dressing professionally. Only the gawkers, lurkers, and peekers are attempting to make mountains of molehills. Oh, and **lance**. He keeps coming back for a peek. Ima go to HR. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/505 "2013-02-06T14:39:33Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > In turn, I will try to be much much more careful about avoiding confusion. Then let this thread die and start your own thread with your own topic. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/506 "2013-02-06T14:51:28Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > STOP with this BULLSHIT. I am NOT dressing oversexually at work. and fuck you for implying it. I am dressed 100% appropriately and happen to have one co-worker (out of many) that cannot behave appropriately. It is not me. it is him. You realize you have just posted something that is in violation of the pit rules. And you’re in IMHO. Reported. ---
**Author:** ![otternell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecc23a/32.png) [@otternell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/otternell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/507 "2013-02-06T14:54:37Z")
Wah. Report it. They’ll warn me. Life will go on. You aren’t a mod, so report all you want, but don’t junior mod. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/508 "2013-02-06T14:58:03Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > You realize you have just posted something that is in violation of the pit rules. And you’re in IMHO. Reported. Past your bedtime, junior. Hopefully the same mod will put this thread to rest, too. Damn shame this tattler is one of the more mature males in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/509 "2013-02-06T15:43:01Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > STOP with this BULLSHIT. I am NOT dressing oversexually at work. and fuck you for implying it. I am dressed 100% appropriately and happen to have one co-worker (out of many) that cannot behave appropriately. It is not me. it is him. This is a warning, don’t use terms like this in this forum, take it to the Pit. > [@Anonymous User](#): > > You realize you have just posted something that is in violation of the pit rules. And you’re in IMHO. Reported. While the reporting is appreciated, let’s have the mods handle stuff like this.. just a note, not a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/510 "2013-02-06T15:49:16Z")
Let’s everyone dial the outrages and intensity back a notch in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/511 "2013-02-06T15:49:40Z")
Pretty sure you can say bullshit in IMHO. > [@](#): > > Surely even you can use google- 69,800,000 results about genetic programming of men and women, or are you going to claim that they are all made up? d There are 71 million hits for “flat earth”. 72 million for unicorn. ddd ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/512 "2013-02-06T16:00:12Z")
Let’s recap… If you’ll all take a moment to review the OP, I believe you’ll find the original issue was not that women are _complaining_ or _taking offense_ when men look at their cleavage, but that they’re simply _covering_ it. He seemed to think that if women choose not to show him their tittays, they are casting aspersions on his moral fiber, and implying that he is a lecherous pervert. So, various women (and men) responded that it’s probably _not_ personal; the woman may have simply decided that she was too exposed, for a number of reasons that have little or nothing to do with the OP. _But_, they added, the majority of the time, most women don’t give a giddy goddamn if people can see their cleavage. They may even _want_ it to be seen. Yet almost universally, they don’t enjoy being _stared_ at. And if they are being _stared_ at, they’ll generally try to cover up. So if you’re a guy who finds that women _frequently_ try to cover their cleavage when you’re around, then maybe you _are_ a bit of a lech, and should try to rein in your Tex Avery reflex. One might have assumed the matter would be settled at that point - if one had never read the SDMB before. Instead, and rather predictably, all hell broke loose, in a variety of flavors: - Some guys took this very personally (let’s call them the John Donnes), because apparently, they have seen women cover their cleavage on occasion, _but that does not make them leches_, consarnit! Some women (the Clara Bartons) said, “There, there. You’re right, it doesn’t. We weren’t talking about _you_. Here’s a cool compress,” while others (the Helen Reddys) doubled down and said, “Waitaminit, so now women _have_ to leave themselves exposed so they don’t offend _you_? Oh, it is ON!” And so it was. - Some guys (the David Attenboroughs) claimed that men should not ever be held responsible for looking at boobs, because it’s only natural and they can’t help it - despite the fact that 1) several other guys (the George Clooneys, aka the Grown-Ass Men) called bullshit and pointed out that most men know how to look without staring and if they do get caught, they have no right to be offended if the woman chooses to cover up, and 2) no woman in the thread ever complained about their boobs being merely _seen_ or _looked at_ and in fact, several (the Teri Hatchers) stated outright that they welcomed discreet admiration. - Some guys (the Justice League) demanded that the women admit (although no one had made a secret of it) that they sometimes wanted _certain_ guys [read: Channing Tatum] to see their boobs and not others, and they decried the unfairness of that fact, given that they were among the “others”. - Some guys (the Taliban) argued that if women didn’t want their boobs to be looked at, they should cover them up - despite the fact that, again, no one complained about being looked at, and further, several women (the Dolly Partons) attested that their boobs are often _stared_ at - not just looked at - _regardless_ of what they are wearing. - Some guys (the Naked Cowboys) claimed that if women _do_ display their cleavage in public, they are effectively signing a memo of understanding that it is free to be looked at, stared at, ogled, and topographically cataloged, and that they forfeit their right to turn away or adjust their clothes under any circumstance. If they do make adjustments, they will be called out on their poor sartorial planning. Or hypocrisy. Or something. - And finally, some guys (the Ray Bolgers) bravely took up the banner against various nonexistent, utterly fictitious statements such as: “I should be able to come to work naked and not be so much as glanced at,” “Mature men shouldn’t be interested in sex at all” and the ever popular old chestnut, “How dare you be aware of my boobs!” And of course, some people argued from multiple positions, even contradictory ones. Interestingly, though, the one position I haven’t yet seen argued or even implicitly agreed with is the one in the OP: that women should not cover their cleavage if they don’t want it seen, because doing so is an insult to the character of the men who can see it. So after all this, it seems we actually have reached a consensus: OP’s trippin’. So ladies, if ever your ladies are on display and you don’t want them to be - _even if_ you were being showered with Mardi Gras beads mere moments ago - you are free to cover them up with a clear conscience, secure in the knowledge that no man in his right mind would be offended by the gesture. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/513 "2013-02-06T16:06:33Z")
we can’t say bullshit in IMHO? Sorry. My browser went ape-poop and I timed out on the edit. I just don’t understand why the thread is being derailed. I thought it was resolved pretty nicely. Woman shows cleavage. Man looks. Woman covers up. Man asks why. Women answer. The answer doesn’t have to be to your liking, or even logical, or even satisfactory. It’s IMHO. There is no “correct” answer with a defensible argument. It’s not even in GD where opinions matter. It’s IMHO! ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/514 "2013-02-06T16:12:56Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > we can’t say bullshit in IMHO? > > Sorry. My browser went ape-poop and I timed out on the edit. > > I just don’t understand why the thread is being derailed. I thought it was resolved pretty nicely. Woman shows cleavage. Man looks. Woman covers up. Man asks why. Women answer. > > The answer doesn’t have to be to your liking, or even logical, or even satisfactory. It’s IMHO. There is no “correct” answer with a defensible argument. It’s not even in GD where opinions matter. It’s IMHO! > [@otternell](#): > > STOP with this BULLSHIT. I am NOT dressing oversexually at work. and **fuck you** for implying it. I am dressed 100% appropriately and happen to have one co-worker (out of many) that cannot behave appropriately. It is not me. it is him. It is the bolded part. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/515 "2013-02-06T16:30:41Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And of course, some people argued from multiple positions, even contradictory ones. Interestingly, though, the one position I haven’t yet seen argued or even implicitly agreed with is the one in the OP: that women should not cover their cleavage if they don’t want it seen, because doing so is an insult to the character of the men who can see it. So after all this, it seems we actually have reached a consensus: OP’s trippin’. So ladies, if ever your ladies are on display and you don’t want them to be - _even if_ you were being showered with Mardi Gras beads mere moments ago - you are free to cover them up with a clear conscience, secure in the knowledge that no man in his right mind would be offended by the gesture. My favorite are the guys who claim helplessness in their collective love of boobies, yet insist we cover them up. Methinks they don’t love boobies as much as they love shaming women. So… Cotton Mathers? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/516 "2013-02-06T17:02:14Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > He’s slut shaming, . It’s sad that you resort to this. Just pathetic. It’s too bad you can’t engage in a higher level of discussion. I’m done with this. I don’t think starting a new thread would help since you’d come along and play these games there too. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/517 "2013-02-06T17:03:36Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > He’s slut shaming, . It’s sad that you resort to this. Just pathetic. It’s too bad you can’t engage in a higher level of discussion. I’m done with this. I don’t think starting a new thread would help since you’d come along and play these games there too. And before I go, I’ll observe - and you can be outraged! about this too - that this exchange is kinda typical of male-female discussions. No, I’m not blaming either sex for that, but you will think I am anyway. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/518 "2013-02-06T17:13:12Z")
Let it die Lance. You’re more annoying than Troppus on this topic, and getting your ass kicked. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/519 "2013-02-06T19:00:51Z")
This conversation is in no way typical. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892/520 "2013-02-06T19:50:07Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > This conversation is in no way typical. A male arguing with a female on cleavage… I see how it is… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-cleavage-then-covering-it-why/647892.md?page=27)