Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why?

[CCitizen]

@Troppus

most men have enough empathy for fellow human beings that they can appreciate the differences between men and women while avoiding making people uncomfortable is second nature.

Unfortunately women who appreciate male – bashing postcards, T-shirts etc. lack empathy for fellow human beings.

Nevertheless, on the issue of not looking I completely agree that sexual harassement laws must be obeyed.

[Troppus]

@TriPolar

The feeling is mutual. Except the desk part. You can come around my desk, just don’t touch anything.

My stapler and I were so uncomfortable in your presence earlier that we felt the need to adjust our clothing. I assure you I have no business at your desk.

[l1I235]

@even_sven

An underlying theme in all of this is a rather common and disturbing one, which is the idea that once a woman has done something that can be interpreted as sexual, her sexuality is basically public property. In this thread, we have an argument that if a woman is wearing a low-cut shirt, it’s somehow nefarious or unfair for her to button up for modesty when she feels the need. As if once cleavage has seen the light of day, every man in the vicinity has a right to his fair share or at least the right to an opinion on how much boob she should be showing.

Women’s sexuality as public property is a very classic misogynist meme, and you find it in some nasty places.

This. And it’s disgusting.

[TriPolar]

@Troppus

My stapler and I were so uncomfortable in your presence earlier that we felt the need to adjust our clothing. I assure you I have no business at your desk.

[Ambivalid]

@CCitizen

Unfortunately women who appreciate male – bashing postcards, T-shirts etc. lack empathy for fellow human beings.

Hmm…When was your last battery re-charge? These comments are really coming out of left field.

[DiosaBellissima]

@TriPolar

So you do judge men by their appearance. Thank you for admitting it. Now why is it wrong for men to judge women by their appearance?

@Troppus

Judge all you like, just stay away from my desk. I don’t give a damn what you think of me or my fashion choices.

OP asked, we answered. We cover up if we don’t want your attention.

Amen. Judge me all goddamned day long, but don’t stare down my shirt like you’ve never seen tits before and get offended when I move to obstruct your view. Act like you were actually raised in civilized society where you interact with people and nobody is going to have a problem.

And Sven, you are dead on. Horrifying.

[CCitizen]

@Ambivalid

Hmm…When was your last battery re-charge? These comments are really coming out of left field.

When was yours? I am just stating that some people lack empathy.

[Ambivalid]

@CCitizen

When was yours?

nm. no need to hijack.

[CCitizen]

@Ambivalid

Huh? But I’m human. That doesn’t even make sense.

I do not know about you, but I am human.

[Ambivalid]

@CCitizen

I do not know about you, but I am human.

Dammit. You responded too fast for my edit. Ehh. No biggie.

[flight]

@Troppus

Unless you were raised in Victorian times, women’s wear has exposed the collarbone, décolletage, and cleavage since the 20’s. Even the modest 40’s and 50’s housewife dress had a tightly form fitting button-up v-neck and a knee length skirt. Are you 115 years old? No? Then you’ve seen women’s bodies revealed by every single fashion in an every changing array of flattering cuts comfortable to creatures with hips and breasts.

Jesus you are angry. You want to take one guess as to who I was talking about lashing out? Who said the fashion of breast exposure is new? Your ability to leap to conclusions is truly astounding.

But we don’t make you nervous, uncomfortable, fearful, or threatened by our notice.

Sigh, when exactly was the part where I said that was OK or that I ever did it? My God, relax.

Yeah, you unrepentantly volunteered the fact that you asked a woman to button her blouse because you couldn’t control yourself.

Yeah, once, because it was getting a bit ridiculous and I was trying to pay careful attention to something she was saying. You know, saying when something is a bit awkward to try to rectify it… like an adult. I love the addition of the can’t control bit at the end there. Very conducive to discussion.

Nope. Re-read it. Every single woman has said it’s no big deal if men notice, glance, look. But the creepers who repeatedly ogle us, make excuses to get in our paths or hover, the guys who deliberately intimidate us by following us, aggressively staring, or otherwise forcing us into a nervous, uncomfortable posture until we escape are worthy of nothing but scorn and derision.

Also the guy not doing any of that who mentioned it occasionally isn’t easy to keep your eyes fully to yourself. That would be the lashing out bit Miss Angry. Seriously, does merely having this topic come up piss you off this much? I am not seeing anger like this out of the others here.

[colander]

@flight

Jesus you are angry. You want to take one guess as to who I was talking about lashing out? Who said the fashion of breast exposure is new? Your ability to leap to conclusions is truly astounding.

Sigh, when exactly was the part where I said that was OK or that I ever did it? My God, relax.

Yeah, once, because it was getting a bit ridiculous and I was trying to pay careful attention to something she was saying. You know, saying when something is a bit awkward to try to rectify it… like an adult. I love the addition of the can’t control bit at the end there. Very conducive to discussion.

Also the guy not doing any of that who mentioned it occasionally isn’t easy to keep your eyes fully to yourself. That would be the lashing out bit Miss Angry. Seriously, does merely having this topic come up piss you off this much? I am not seeing anger like this out of the others here.

I don’t and can’t know what it is that you think you “see,” but I’d like to point out to you the fact that every single woman who has posted to this thread agrees with Troppus. All of them. (Well, except for Saraya.)

You know why? It’s because she’s right.

[Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit]

@flight

Jesus you are angry. … My God, relax.

Yeah there’s no reason to be mad about casual, socially-accepted dehumanization! Why be such a bitch?

@flight

You know, saying when something is a bit awkward to try to rectify it… like an adult. I love the addition of the can’t control bit at the end there. Very conducive to discussion.

Why exactly is blatantly obvious reality not conducive to discussion?

[Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit]

P.S. If someone works the word “shrill” into their next comment, I win Chauvinist Boilerplate Bingo*.

• 1st prize is an Arabian abaya and the collected words of Camille Paglia.

[KarlGrenze]

After reading the last entries, I’m sure if I should laugh laugh laugh or be wary…

I mean, I thought the OP had a somewhat sexist, but simple answer. The answer to “why do women cover up when they were showing off before?” have been given some simple reasons:

• Things unintentionally moved, and we’re not going to do an emergency stop at our house to change.

• Moved from one environment to the other one during the day, what was appropriate in one, is not so much in another.

• Weather issues (it got cold, rainy, freezing, etc.)

• Normal fidgeting without any thought

• Just plain not feeling comfortable

A few men have taken issue at the last one. If we’re not feeling comfortable, as others have said, it is because something or someone in the environment has made us feel that way. It may be that yes, you’re stare and interaction with us is annoying us. It can also be as simple as “We think you may be in a position where we should cover up, for society and etiquette’s sake”. I may be showing cleavage with my coworkers in the office, but when I have to go see my main (male) boss, I’m going to grab a jacket and zip up, or make sure nothing shows. I don’t think he is a perv or a creep, he’s a perfectly nice guy. But it is just not professional to go to him with cleavage (or frozen chest). Ditto if I’m interacting with other bosses, priests, relatives, and grandpa-type guys.

Also, what even sven said is right. That idea that “once exposed, is public property, cannot be covered up” is mysoginistic, and needs to stop.

[Troppus]

Angry at you? No, even real life You is a mere nuisance akin to a fly at a picnic. But flies ruin the picnic for everyone else, so maybe a good dressing down from the cool guys in this thread will save the day. Hear that, fellas? **flight **suggests we dress more modestly and cover up the goods. You cool with that? No? Sic ‘im.

I am, however, appalled at your bad manners and find your suggestion to change our style of dress presumptuous and archaic. We are looong past the time when any man save our fathers has any say-so in our fashion choices. Out of all the bumbling retorts from indignant, entitled men in this thread: that one takes the cake. (Might as well, you sure ain’t getting pie.)

Well, once I felt actual anger bubble up after reading even sven’s accurate summary:

@even_sven

An underlying theme in all of this is a rather common and disturbing one, which is the idea that once a woman has done something that can be interpreted as sexual, her sexuality is basically public property. In this thread, we have an argument that if a woman is wearing a low-cut shirt, it’s somehow nefarious or unfair for her to button up for modesty when she feels the need. As if once cleavage has seen the light of day, every man in the vicinity has a right to his fair share or at least the right to an opinion on how much boob she should be showing.

Yeah, that makes me want to bind my chest. Hell, that makes me want to put gators in the moat.

@flight

Yeah, once, because it was getting a bit ridiculous and I was trying to pay careful attention to something she was saying. You know, saying when something is a bit awkward to try to rectify it… like an adult.

We’ve already given your plight all the sympathy it’s due in this thread. Let’s extend your claim that all breasts, even the breasts of women you aren’t romantically involved with are such an attractive nuisance that you are unable to carry on a conversation in their presence. I imagine the breakfast table at your house was awkward. “Sis, zip up your hoody, wouldja? I can’t read the Cheerios box because of your irresistible breasts.” “Mom, tighten up that robe. You know I can’t study near those jugs.” “Grandma…” If you are able to pay attention to the female people related to you by blood without ogling their bodies, then you are able to carry on a conversation with friends and coworkers without resorting to such crass measures.

Angry? Let’s call it mildly disconcerted. These pixels scatter the moment I step away from the keyboard. But I probably will store this discussion away for the next time I find myself orbited by an ill-mannered boor, and he’ll probably get worse than a cleavage blocker. I’ll probably confront him, and I’m liable to be surly about it. The offender may just be immature and undeserving of contempt, but I’ll treat him as though he is as hostile and entitled as a couple of the men in this thread.

@Sparky_the_Wonder_Spirit

P.S. If someone works the word “shrill” into their next comment, I win Chauvinist Boilerplate Bingo*.

• 1st prize is an Arabian abaya and the collected words of Camille Paglia.

laughed my ass off

[Dangerosa]

@even_sven

An underlying theme in all of this is a rather common and disturbing one, which is the idea that once a woman has done something that can be interpreted as sexual, her sexuality is basically public property. In this thread, we have an argument that if a woman is wearing a low-cut shirt, it’s somehow nefarious or unfair for her to button up for modesty when she feels the need. As if once cleavage has seen the light of day, every man in the vicinity has a right to his fair share or at least the right to an opinion on how much boob she should be showing.

Women’s sexuality as public property is a very classic misogynist meme, and you find it in some nasty places.

And then people wonder whe phrases like “rape culture” come from. This is what feminists mean when they talk about a rape culture.

It isn’t that much of a stretch from youve put your body on public display and its so hard to keep myself from looking to its so hard to keep myself from touching and she asked for it.

[SmellMyWort]

@flight

Damn it. I know that port sounded oddly specific, but was too lazy to look up if it referenced something else. Never heard that before.

Never really, but then men’s clothing isn’t really designed to show off our package or whatever. Interestingly, now that it occurs to me, these female tops seem specifically designed to show off cleavage because the equivalent men’s shirts never have necklines that plunge anywhere near women’s. That is, excepting a few horrific fashions from the 70s. I am not condemning the plunging neckline, just taking notice that it seems to be the original purpose, though I guess now it is just another look. And before someone attacks me for saying women must be asking for leers by wearing tops designed for women, I am absolutely not saying anything like that.

Wow, you are reading in a whole lot that was never said. I did not have an opinion on the OP as I had never noticed women covering up around me ever. I was reading the thread as I was interested in if this was actually a thing at all of if the OP was off his rocker. I only added something to a tangent someone else brought up.

OK, you seem to have already known what I was posting about, so where did all those aggressive questions above come from? I added a small point from the point of view of men who do not leer, but do take note. I did not make any sort of suggestion or comment on women’s behavior. But, when pressed for one here, I guess I could say, “It is slightly kinder to men if when in a place where we should not be looking you make it a bit easier on us. No pressure, and we will do our best not to take too much notice regardless.”

So far from this thread I am not convinced that women covering up around specific non-leering people happens that much, so I do not think that is a problem (the women certainly do not seem to think so) or that anyone should do anything about it.

The ideal response would be something along the lines of, “I will not say thanks for not leering because that is just basic human decency, but sorry if we make things slightly more difficult than they had to be. Women’s clothing is finicky. Didn’t realize it was so distracting to you guys, I will keep it in mind.”

I am not going to lay it on you in person, but in a thread where we are talking about it it seems perfectly appropriate. Both you (and several others) seem to be taking the opinion that it is our damn problem if boobs are distracting and you don’t give a rat’s ass. Well, it is our problem, but it is really hypocritical to say you do not care about (an admittedly small) nuisance you cause others when in the same breath condemning others for the nuisance their looking at you wrongly causes you. Seriously, I try to be considerate of people’s feelings whenever possible. That means not ogling women who do not wish it. You could return the kindness even if what we deal with is nowhere near as much of a problem.

Sure, I have really no idea how much of a pain dealing with men who stare is, but then again I was reading this thread to try and find out more. What I seem to be learning is that there are a lot of men who are dicks about it. Some of them are unrepentant dicks about it (posting in this thread). Some women are so stressed out by their behavior that they lash out all over the place.

I guess I assumed your posts had some bearing on the OP. The purpose of my questions was not to be aggressive but to illustrate that they are logical extensions to the opinion you posted. Maybe you’re just posting it here as a kind of public service message. The thing is, the far majority of working women do dress appropriately for work and if that level of attire is distracting to you then I suggest you adjust your titilation meter down a bit because your complaint has everything to do with you and not with the women you encounter.

I’m a guy and while I greatly admire the female figure, the cleavage of coworkers, friends, and strangers does not factor into my interactions with them. I may notice, sure, but there’s no distraction, it’s not a nuisance, it doesn’t make communicating with them hard. If I happen to catch a glance, great. As another male poster said, it’s like finding $5 on the ground. Be happy, pick it up, and move on. You don’t dance around like you won the lottery or stand there so transfixed that you get hit by a truck.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Troppus

Yeah? Well, read a self-help book. Because it’s not my job to teach men how to conduct themselves appropriately and address women as though they are human beings and not a means to their sexual satisfaction.

Kind of thought we were doing all the clueless offenders posting and lurking in this thread a favor by explaining that their behavior is not only unacceptable, it’s boorish and imprudent. But you keep right on justifying their attitude until HR explains it in writing.

Get over yourself.

This is just a discussion on a MB.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Dangerosa

Where in the hell did this come from?

Maybe he’s a gypsie and oggling is a form of rape?