Perhaps this was mentioned in this long thread, but the scene from The 40-Year Old Virgin, is perfect fodder: where the Steve Carrel character is attempting to have a conversation with a woman who doesn’t realize her breast is exposed, and he, squirming, is too much of a gentleman to mention it.
There shouldn’t be anything confusing about this.
I happen to agree with the “consensus” about some things and disagree with it about others. To the extent that I (or anyone else) disagree with it, I don’t think “the consensus of women in this thread is …” is a compelling counterargument.
I may be wrong, but I’m getting the impression that you are saying that because females can resist oggling a man’s muscles, men should also be able to do the same about women’s breasts.
Have you never read Men are from Mars etc? Do you really not realise that men and women are NOT genetically wired the same?
What else do you expect a freshman to do, other than look at breasts? Do you not have a clue that a young man is chock full of testosterone?
Look, men are genetically programmed to copulate with as many females as possible, women are genetically programmed to have children and raise them. We are different, like it or not.
Sure, “civilization” has imposed restraints on the genetic imperatives of men, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
So, if women don’t want men looking at sexually attractive parts of their anatomy, don’t expose them- it’s that simple.
If a female wants to expose her sexy bits, fine, but don’t complain when men look.
BTW, it’s worth remembering that in Victorian times a well covered up woman could still evoke men’s urges by exposing an ankle.
Wow. That post was truly awful. Have you considered television?
Ps. MENSTRUATION
Wow you really are an expert with the witty repartee, are you not?
I could write something meaningful in response, but your opinion is meaningless without an analysis, so why would I bother?
Perhaps we could have your well thought out contribution as to one side of the discussion, or are you just interested in making pointless personal observations?
Perhaps, you could attempt to substantiate your ridiculous assertions about the genetic programming of men and women? Interesting that after the advent of modern birth control the birth rate has steadily declined. Seems that once women could control their fertility they didn’t want to be pregnant constantly raising babies.
Did you get your “information” from reading Men are from Mars?
Surely even you can use google- 69,800,000 results about genetic programming of men and women, or are you going to claim that they are all made up?
Strange then that world population has increased to 7 billion, even after the advent of modern birth control. I guess most of the worlds population don’t agree with you.
Oh, the “we cannot control it” argument again? C’mon, even other men have torn down that argument, plus it makes men look like little kids, which shouldn’t be.
And for the nth time, most women have said “glance OK”. All they are asking is respect and professional treatment. Shouldn’t be too difficult, and should be required, in an office environment.
Yes, a lot of so called ‘genetic gender programming’ is made up BS, typically promoted by MRAs or PUAs. Evolutionary Psychology is made up of a lot pseudoscience BS in order to justify misogyny. I am not even sure there is such thing as ‘genetic gender’. Genetic sex (XX, XY, XXY, etc), yes, but* gender* or a person’s gender identity is a social construct.
You are aware population growth is exponential in nature, right? That there is more people on the planet because our life expectancy has increased dramatically. *Surly, even you can google *‘Demographic Transition’ and familiarize yourself with the different stages, e.g. declining birth rates (and death rates). A lot of this is due to a shift in cultural values, post-industrial economics - and of course - the advent of modern contraceptives. Women having greater opportunity to control their their fertility does not mean the birth rate completely stops - it means women (and men) had greater opportunity in CHOOSING how many children they wish to have - and it seems they wanted to have fewer children (avg number of children US women desire is ~2). Men desire children as well. It’s not all about getting laid and spreading their seed.
Surly, even you must be able to use google and inform yourself on the social conditioning of gender. I mean, your post detailed how sexualized women’s ankles were during the Victorian era. Yet, no one is telling today’s women to cover up their ankles if they don’t wish to be ogled by men overcome by lust. Well, outside of countries that have serious issues with gender equity.
Sexual attraction/behavior is generally culturally influenced which triggers biological sexual responses/arousal. (excluding the psychology of fetishes or dysfunction). Outside of our genetic sexual programming of XY = male and XX = female, (or variations of inter-sexed) I am unaware of a specific genetic code that triggers sexual arousal? Hormones, sure, but human behavior is NOT solely dictated by hormones. Sexual arousal is a biological response, certainly, but genetically coded to get turned on by a woman’s ankle or large breasts? Not exactly. In some cultures obese women with stretchmarks are considered the most attractive.
Seems to me you just like to excuse bad male behavior because ‘men are just programmed that way’ and women just got to deal. Sorry, not buying it, we no longer live in the Paleolithic era. Humans are creatures capable of higher intellect and greater cognitive reasoning than animals. Men are fully capable of controlling themselves.
Ok. Let’s assume, for the span of this post, that you are correct. Men are genetically wired, chock full of testosterone, to ogle a woman’s breasts. We should not expect men to treat me as anything other than a tool for copulation, because that’s just how they’re genetically wired.
How is that my problem? Why do I have to change my behavior because you can’t control your genetic imperative?
It’s not acceptable. Perhaps some people are genetically wired to be murderers. It doesn’t make it okay to murder. Perhaps some people are genetically wired to find children sexually attractive. It doesn’t make it okay to molest children.
No.
If you can’t stop yourself from ogling women (don’t switch it from “ogle” to “look” now, that’s moving the goalposts, and I’m going to hold you to what you said first) then you should create yourself a life that doesn’t include being around women. Not by limiting women, but by limiting yourself.
So you’re saying it’s *not *a genetic imperative, then? Because if you’re going to claim that Victorian men were genetically wired to ogle women’s ankles, but modern men aren’t, I’m afraid you’ve got a lot of googling to do to prove that men’s genetic wiring has changed much in 150 years.
This is a mistake.
Men are programmed to like to look at women’s bodies. Exactly which parts can change with the styles and the times. And most significantly, the more exposure they get, the more it takes to provoke interest. In Victorian times, an ankle was a lot. Now you see that so routinely that it takes more.
The same food that would not interest you might be very tantalizing to someone in a Soviet labor camp. That doesn’t prove that people are not genetically programmed to have appetites.
[Note: I assume any number of people are now going to be outraged that women are being compared to food. Have fun.]
^^Comparing women to food is an improvement for you. However, your credibility on the subject is damaged from your drugs and alcohol addiction analogy, sorry. Sexual urges are more akin to hunger urges as both are healthy and natural. Addiction impulses? Not so much.The onus is on men to control their sexual urges, not on women to dress in a certain way in order to not arouse them. By the way, no one has ever died from lack of sex while people have surly died from starvation.
I look at cleavage, butts, smiles, hair, necks, legs, and cameltoes on a daily basis. Fortunately I do it less now than when I was 16. I don’t stare, because I’m not a gorilla. I glance. I acknowledge. If it’s really nice, I might go back for seconds. I don’t break my concentration on the task that I’m doing. I don’t comment about it. Just taking in the scenery.
I get that makes me a bit pervy and really, I’m ok with it. At worst, I’m just an asshole and at best I’m just a slave to my genetics. I doubt I’ve ruined anyone’s day, much less life by it and I doubt I’ve seriously detracted from anyone’s quality of life in a meaningful way with my glances.
I also get that cumulatively, our glances as a gender could amount to a fair bit of duress for the more shapely woman but that’s just the cross she has to bear. Some people are born short, or fat, or with a club foot. I empathize but don’t sympathize. If she’s beyond-the-pale outraged, she can certainly verbalize her frustration to me and I would sincerely apologize. I don’t mean to cause humiliation with my glances. I’m doing it solely as a selfish act to satiate that primate portion of my stupid man-brain. If that offends, my apologies but know that I try to stifle it about as much as I try to stifle a sneeze.
As for the OP, the one being oggled is certainly within her rights to cover up. Why the hell wouldn’t she be? I don’t think that’s a subject of much debate anymore but I just have to throw in those additional 2 cents as well.
You tell us if we display it, you’re going to ogle. Then you tell us because we don’t display it, you’re going to ogle.
So which is it? Do we cover the cleavage up or do we give it more exposure? Which one will stop y’all from ogling? :dubious:
Obviously, nothing I DO is going to stop you from ogling, so fucking stop yourself from ogling.
The ladies where I have my hair cut dress with cleavage showing. I thought about going somewhere else as one of them started that tugging thing, but decided to stand my ground. Next time I went in, the same girl came to the counter looked at me and wondered out loud why I was holding both hands up against the side of my face like horse blinders and looking everywhere but at her?
“Just wanted you to know I’m not a lech, just a normal guy who appreciates a woman’s body, but I was wondering which one of us should be the most offended?”
She considered this for a moment and reached up and removed my hands. No problems form there on out.
I thank the OP for this, since I have been wanting to post this for more than a year. I have hesitated because people who know me might have misunderstood. I only saw this tonight and said to myself. “ALL RIIIIIGHT! Finally!”
So thanks for bringing this up.
Quasi
No problems? How do you hold silverware now?
Nice one, colander! 
Thanks for the smile, even though it did take me a moment!
Quasi
A nicer woman than I (likely because she needed your business and a healthy tip). I probably would have just given you one of these :dubious:, then later told my friends about the weird dude at work.
Yeah, whatever.
Pretty much - Quasi - you had all the power in the situation. You are the client. She can’t do anything about you unless you actually touch her. She probably needs the job.
Next time, your first instinct was right - go to a different shop if the way the stylists at this one dress or tug at their clothing make you uncomfortable.
(Being a stylist can be a horrible job. Your clothing needs to be fashionable and you need to project ‘I know how to make people look good’ - which you do by looking good yourself. Your clothes are under constant assault from chemicals - namely hair color, so nothing lasts long. You are on your feet all day long making chit chat with strangers - and fashionable often means that you are doing this in heels. If you make a mistake or miscommunicate, there usually isn’t a good way to fix it - and you might not get paid for the last hour you spent. Not that you get paid well anyway unless you are at the top of your profession working in a really high end salon with enough clientele to fill your days)