Showing Cleavage Then Covering It- Why?

[pancakes3]

Speaking as a guy, Lance, the answers to your questions are pretty much intuitive. She wants to be attractive to some, and not others. Sometimes, it’s unintentional. Sometimes she only wants to be oggled to a certain extent. Other times she just wants to feel hot enough to warrant oggling but hate the oggling itself (hey, fair game ladies. i’m admitting my fault. you all aren’t perfectly innocent 100% of the time).

The point is, cleavage giveth and cleavage taketh away. There’s no mandate that states that once cleavage has been established, we men get free reign over the scenery. Do you also get angry that Mother Nature only blesses us with 40 minutes worth of sunset a day then maliciously plunges the world into darkness? Or do you just enjoy the sunset while it lasts and appreciate it for what it’s worth? Furthermore, do you crash your car into the median because you’re staring at the sunset? Or do you just say, “hey, nice sunset”, take an Instagram and move on (::joke::)?

I don’t think we’re any more hard wired to stare at boobs specifically than we are to notice a car we just bought, or the number 23. We can be hard wired to seek out partners and we notice women more than we notice men, but to have a specific code that seeks out predetermined boobs? That’s an awfully specific code that I just don’t think exists. If you took a wolf boy and brought him into society, he’ll be drawn to women, but he’s not going to stare down cleavage.

I mean, the easiest defense against the cleavage-hardwire would be to note that there ass men and boob men. An ass man would have his sightline honed in on the tuccus rather than the chesticles. Or legs. Or the front bum. Or… whatever picques your fancy.

Anyway, bottom line is that GUYS… stop being so adamant and turning this into a creepy witch hunt, which is ruining it for the rest of us.

[lance_strongarm]

@pancakes3

Speaking as a guy

Okay, but I’d like to hear it from the gals too.

[KarlGrenze]

@EverwonderWhy

Women don’t necessarily dress for male attention, even if they are showing cleavage or wearing a mini skirt. So perhaps, their fidgeting or attire has absolutely nothing to do with you?

@velvetjones

Slightly off topic:

I once wore a low cut blouse to work thinking that it wasn’t too low cut. When I had a conversation with my boss and he couldn’t stop looking at my cleavage (he’s not the sort of person who would normally ogle a woman) I realized that the shirt was indeed too low cut for work and I stopped wearing it. I didn’t cover up while we were talking though.

Out to a club or a bar I expect and to some degree want my cleavage to be ogled. That’s why I wore the shirt and no, I’d never pull it up or cover with my hand unless it had slid so far my bra was hanging out.

The problem I see with mini skirts lately is they’re super short and super tight/stretchy so while walking they ride up. If this continues un-adjusted eventually your whole ass is hanging out (I’m stating this from observation, not personal experience because I’m way too old and round for a mini skirt) hence the constant tugging. I think it looks ridiculous but I see it all the time.

@olivesmarch4th

I’d say it’s because sometimes when you put something on, you don’t realize just how low-cut it actually is until it’s too late to change. And often you can start in the day wearing something that is appropriate, but it rides up/slips down with daily use, so you have to constantly adjust it.

I don’t wear low-cut tops that often, though. But any time I’ve gotten suddenly self-conscious about something I’m wearing, that’s why.

@even_sven

Buttoning and unbuttoning a sweater is just fidgeting. I’ll do it a thousand times a day without thinking. If I’ve just walked in to someone’s office or slowed down in the hallway, I probably unbuttoned it for the walk (where I’ll get a little warmer) and re-buttoned it for sitting or standing still (when I’ll get cooler.)

Sometimes, you do get situations where despite your best intentions, on second thought, what you put on in the AM isn’t really appropriate for the office. Our breasts change all the time depending on our weight, our cycles, and what bra we are wearing. So what was fine yesterday may seem a little on the edge today. Or you can have a low cut shirt that you wear all the time with conservative pants, but you suddenly realize looks inappropriate when you wear it with your new shapely skirt. Or sometimes the camisole you usually wear under a shirt is in the wash, so you put on your other camisole and don’t notice until lunch that it’s cut A LOT lower. Or a new shirt that is fine in the dressing room, but rides up after you’ve been wearing it a couple of hours. Or maybe you put on the button up that looked fine, but you suddenly notice that when you look at it from the right you see a gap where the buttons are straining a bit. There are just a lot of complexities, and we’ve all had an unfortunate day or two where we miscalculated.

We’ve got a tough line to walk. Workwear is expected to be shapely and make us look good, without revealing too much or making us look actively sexy. A lot of the clothing available to us to buy from office wear stores isn’t actually appropriate for the office, and a cut that looks perfectly fine on our friend may look obscenely sexual on us. Basically we wake up tired and disheveled in the morning, and need to put together something that fits all kinds of unstated rules, on a constantly changing playing field, with fiddling and unpredictable items, without any good way to get external feedback on what is appropriate and what isn’t. It’s not surprising that we misjudge now and then.

This is why people like Hilary Clinton do that “identical pantsuit” thing. For a time, feminists advocated that women just pick a professional uniform and stick to it, like men do. But of course, men didn’t like that, either…there is no real way to win.

@WhyNot

Just because I want people to see my cleavage doesn’t mean I want you to see my cleavage.

Seriously…when I do this, it’s because you’re making me feel uncomfortable and self-conscious. Not because the shirt is making me feel uncomfortable and self-conscious.

@Troppus

I regard my own breasts and how they appear before work in much the same way I view my hair, the length of my pants, the fit of the waist, bra straps hidden, etc. Breasts are just part of my overal look, and if I can’t see nipple in the mirror, I figure I’m good to go. I stand in front of a mirror for a sec then grab my keys. I don’t plan for dropped change, ogling strangers, the angle a tall guy can see when he walks past my desk, what might happen to the gap in my blouse if I reach for a napkin at lunch, etc. We’re not stiff die-cut paper dolls; we’re soft and round and flexible with infinite variation as to proportion and arrangement of curves.

Thankfully men I encounter are not so transfixed by cleavage that they find it a constant distraction and temptation. Though there are plenty of quick up-downs no matter the style of the garment, it’s a rare moment that a man I’m interacting with is so fixated on my breasts that I feel it necessary to retreat. So I don’t really put that much thought into my clothing. Despite what many of the men on this board seem to think: I’m dressing for comfort and style, not for the attention of men. If I want a man’s attention, it won’t be gained by some subtle and mysterious arrangement of buttons and straps. If I want him to see me as a potential partner, he’ll know.

You guys should really just steal a glance, thank your gods for push-up bras and keep your traps shut. You keep derping up this tired “I see bewbs, she wants it” routine, it’s only a matter of time before we collectively shut this shit down like Fort Knox. Give it a rest or it’s turtlenecks from coast to coast.

@iftheresaway

An example: yesterday was my son’s baptism. I don’t have a lot of dressy stuff, so I wear my go-to black dress, with a nice cardigan on top since it’s cold and sleeveless isn’t appropriate for the occasion. All is well, and my little atheist butt is proud of how churchy I look.

Then we get to the church, and it turns out my FIL has saved us seats in the very first pew. Now I’m constantly standing up and sitting down while holding a squirmy six-month-old grabbing at my neckline, with nothing but 20 feet of open air between my cleavage and the golden-gowned priest. Suddenly a dress that was conservative at home felt very revealing, and I spent much of the service surreptitiously tugging at my clothes.

@snuffleupagus

This. Clothes may look good at home but start riding up, or down, with wear, making you constantly readjust during the day. Or you may be talking to a man who keeps looking you in the chest instead of the eyes, and feel compelled to button another button or pull your neckline up a bit. Sometimes you want to show a bit of cleavage, but not a ton, depending on the situation. It is a fine line.

@olivesmarch4th

I only had one ever ‘‘omg cleavage’’ moment like that. I was sitting at my desk in a favorite v-neck top and a guy walked in and was standing really close to the edge of the desk. And he kept trailing off during conversation because he was staring at my breasts.

I don’t wear the shirt to show off my cleavage, I wear it because I like it. I’m not getting rid of my favorite shirt because some guy doesn’t know how to interact with a woman. If a woman is wearing a low-cut top (or v-neck that can look low-cut from the top down, or whatever), don’t assume it’s even because she wants to show off her rack. Maybe she just likes the color, or the fit, or it’s really comfortable.

@colander

I am not sure you understand very much about how some workplaces expect female employees to dress. “Snappy” clothes are very much de rigeur in many jobs. For women, that means a requirement to dress in a somewhat sexualized manner. As noted, it is not quite the same for men.

It is kind of funny that this even has to be explained.

All of those quotes are for women explaining, in the first page of this thread.

[Troppus]

@lance_strongarm

They do it because they’re used to seeing them all the time.

Gee, lance strongarm, it’s super swell of you to confirm my point for me, that men aren’t “genetically hard-wired” to ogle breasts. It’s refreshing to see you taking a break from passing judgement on what women do with their bodies.

@lance_strongarm

If you don’t want it seen, cover it.

Spoke too soon.

@lance_strongarm

So can I show up to work naked and insist nobody look at me?

I suspect they’ll insist.

[TriPolar]

@Troppus

Gee, lance strongarm, it’s super swell of you to confirm my point for me, that men aren’t “genetically hard-wired” to ogle breasts. It’s refreshing to see you taking a break from passing judgement on what women do with their bodies.

Yet you claim that woman show cleavage in order to have men ogle them. Or are you the only one with the privilege of mischaracterizing other’s posts? If you can point out where a man has claimed that he was hard-wired to ogle women’s breasts I’ll berate the fool. In the mean time try responding to what people are saying instead of your fantasies.

[lance_strongarm]

@Troppus

Gee, lance strongarm, it’s super swell of you to confirm my point for me, that men aren’t “genetically hard-wired” to ogle breasts. It’s refreshing to see you taking a break from passing judgement on what women do with their bodies.

Spoke too soon.

So women (or men) have a right to dress or undress any way they want and expect no consequences?

Can I show up naked to work and complain when I’m fired?

Or walk down the street naked and complain when people stare at me or freak out or whatever?

I’d appreciate an honest answer to those questions, not a coy one. But hey, they don’t really need answering, do they? We all know the answer.

Damn right I judge people (not just women) for their choices of dress. As does everyone, including you.

[lance_strongarm]

@KarlGrenze

All of those quotes are for women explaining, in the first page of this thread.

Thanks, but I was really looking for answers to my more specific questions, but some of them are in all that, sort of.

But let me jump to this one:

[QUOTE=why not]
Just because I want people to see my cleavage doesn’t mean I want you to see my cleavage.
[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s nice. Except I can still see it. Unless you put a note on it that says “don’t see this unless you’re (insert name)” you can expect everyone to see it. That’s a law of physics.

[lance_strongarm]

@colander

I am not sure you understand very much about how some workplaces expect female employees to dress. “Snappy” clothes are very much de rigeur in many jobs. For women, that means a requirement to dress in a somewhat sexualized manner. As noted, it is not quite the same for men.

It is kind of funny that this even has to be explained.

So you just go along with your sexualization?

And do you not see how this is not only inviting, but actually justifying the ogling?

[lance_strongarm]

@olivesmarch4th

I only had one ever ‘‘omg cleavage’’ moment like that. I was sitting at my desk in a favorite v-neck top and a guy walked in and was standing really close to the edge of the desk. And he kept trailing off during conversation because he was staring at my breasts.

I don’t wear the shirt to show off my cleavage, I wear it because I like it. I’m not getting rid of my favorite shirt because some guy doesn’t know how to interact with a woman. If a woman is wearing a low-cut top (or v-neck that can look low-cut from the top down, or whatever), don’t assume it’s even because she wants to show off her rack. Maybe she just likes the color, or the fit, or it’s really comfortable.

Reductio ad absurdum:

If you were topless, would you expect him not to gawk too? Or pretend he doesn’t even notice?

If you say he doesn’t know how to interact with a woman, can I say that the way you dress means you don’t know how to interact with a man?

[Troppus]

@lance_strongarm

So women (or men) have a right to dress or undress any way they want and expect no consequences?

Can I show up naked to work and complain when I’m fired?

Or walk down the street naked and complain when people stare at me or freak out or whatever?

I’d appreciate an honest answer to those questions, not a coy one. But hey, they don’t really need answering, do they? We all know the answer.

Damn right I judge people (not just women) for their choices of dress. As does everyone, including you.

May I suggest you read the thread you’re posting in so that you can stay on topic? You appear to have confused this thread with one wherein people are claiming the right to wander about in public and at the workplace naked without consequences.

[Troppus]

@TriPolar

Yet you claim that woman show cleavage in order to have men ogle them. Or are you the only one with the privilege of mischaracterizing other’s posts? If you can point out where a man has claimed that he was hard-wired to ogle women’s breasts I’ll berate the fool. In the mean time try responding to what people are saying instead of your fantasies.

Is your search function broken? No less than three guys claim helplessness when confronted with cleavage due to a “wiring” problem. You, in fact, led that charge.

[lance_strongarm]

@Troppus

May I suggest you read the thread you’re posting in so that you can stay on topic? You appear to have confused this thread with one wherein people are claiming the right to wander about in public and at the workplace naked without consequences.

[QUOTE=you]
It’s refreshing to see you taking a break from passing judgement on what women do with their bodies.
[/QUOTE]

Gee, my mistake.

My point, which you conveniently ignored, is that nobody - even you - disputes the fact that there are inappropriate ways of dressing that would justify judgment, ogling or other consequences. EVEN YOU believe that.

You have declared, unilaterally, that showing cleavage isn’t one of those ways of dressing. You need to justify that, though, and saying “I can dress however I want” isn’t a justification, because you can’t, and even you would agree that you can’t.

So either you need to explain why cleavage should be okay, or expect attention you don’t want.

[Krouget]

^^ Just curious, but have you actually read the thread, in its entirety? And if so, is this the conclusion you’ve come to, despite many of your “points” having been addressed previously?

[Quasimodem]

@Dangerosa

Pretty much - Quasi - you had all the power in the situation. You are the client. She can’t do anything about you unless you actually touch her. She probably needs the job.

Next time, your first instinct was right - go to a different shop if the way the stylists at this one dress or tug at their clothing make you uncomfortable.

Okay, let’s see if I have this right: I finally find a place where they can cut my hair the way I like it, but I have to leave and go someplace else because she’s uncomfortable and starts tugging at her shirt to the point where I feel I have to say something?

Q

[lance_strongarm]

@Krouget

^^ Just curious, but have you actually read the thread, in its entirety? And if so, is this the conclusion you’ve come to, despite many of your “points” having been addressed previously?

I did, though not very carefully. Perhaps they were addressed. It didn’t look like it. If so, some people are still saying things I disagree with, so I think I can jump in now.

[lance_strongarm]

@EverwonderWhy

The onus is on men to control their sexual urges, not on women to dress in a certain way in order to not arouse them.

But by that standard, women could show up to work naked, as I’ve pointed out. I don’t think any woman here thinks women are entitled to that. Nor would any woman blame a man for his reaction to it, I would hope.

It’s a simplistic standard that puts all the responsibility on one party and completely ignores the fact that dress standards are about more than ogling. Men can’t show up to work naked either, or expose certain parts, without expecting certain responses.

[Troppus]

lance, if you would read the thread (which you haven’t) you’d see that the majority of reasonable men and women accept that buttoned shirts, fitted shirts, excessive curves, stature, posture, dropped coins, and angle of view all provide opportunities for oglers to gain an accidental peek at cleavage. The majority of men have admitted to committing a fleeting appreciation of women’s assets without threatening, lurking, or creeping about.

Two men have displayed bitterness towards women who don’t permit all men equal access to the cleavage show. (tiny violin) Three men have claimed wiring issues (disproven), three are slut-shamers (count yourself here). Luckily, this sample isn’t representative of our real-world experience. Most guys are savvy and empathetic to others.

It’s been said numerous times, but I’ll restate it so you don’t have to trouble yourself with the work. Presumably you aren’t Ken-doll smooth between the legs, so you are aware that jiggly bits aren’t as easy to fit and keep in place as say… arms and legs. We aren’t paper dolls. We do our best to prepare for weather conditions and physical tasks, but none of us are prepared to sport a burka because a sprinkling of creepers feel entitled to a show. We are adhering to the dress code. We are dressing professionally, some of us to fit current fashion, some for comfort, and some to present an attractive facade befitting a particular job. If you find yourself unable to conduct yourself properly in the company of professionally dressed women at work, get thee to HR and file a complaint. We’ll see which one of you receives the counseling needed to continue gainful employment.

[Troppus]

@Quasimodem

Okay, let’s see if I have this right: I finally find a place where they can cut my hair the way I like it, but I have to leave and go someplace else because she’s uncomfortable and starts tugging at her shirt to the point where I feel I have to say something?

Q

Or stop staring. Pretty simple, really.

[lance_strongarm]

@Troppus

lance, if you would read the thread (which you haven’t) you’d see that the majority of reasonable men and women accept that buttoned shirts, fitted shirts, excessive curves, stature, posture, dropped coins, and angle of view all provide opportunities for oglers to gain an accidental peek at cleavage. The majority of men have admitted to committing a fleeting appreciation of women’s assets without threatening, lurking, or creeping about.

Yes, I know, and I don’t have a problem with that.

three are slut-shamers (count yourself here).

Don’t you DARE call me that. I am by no means one of those.

We do our best to prepare for weather conditions and physical tasks, but none of us are prepared to sport a burka because a sprinkling of creepers feel entitled to a show.

Didn’t say that.

We are adhering to the dress code.

So you agree that there is a dress code? And there needs to be one?

If you find yourself unable to conduct yourself properly in the company of professionally dressed women at work, get thee to HR and file a complaint. We’ll see which one of you receives the counseling needed to continue gainful employment.

I’m not here to talk about who is following the dress code, I’m here to talk about what it ought to be, and why.

Your defensiveness is interesting. You seem to want to blame men for everything, and I don’t accept that. Nor do I blame women for everything. I’ll bet we could have a really good discussion if you would accept that I’m simply breaking through alot of assumptions here, not challenging you personally.

There’s a dress code. Nobody, not even you, thinks there shouldn’t be one. We are just talking about where it begins and ends (literally) and why. That shouldn’t be something to get angry about, and your pathetic insult above was completely uncalled for. Your anger is misplaced, because all I’m doing is challenging your assumptions, not how you dress, and there’s nothing wrong with that on this forum.

The limit to how women dress is somewhere between burka and naked. Exactly where it lies is not always easy to figure out. But it is something we must all agree on, not something you can declare unilaterally and then yell “slut-shamer” whenever someone dares to suggest it might be different.

[lance_strongarm]

@Troppus

Or stop staring. Pretty simple, really.

Or stop showing off your private areas. Just as simple.

Saying “don’t stare” is not an answer. It’s not the least bit productive. There’s a line between when it’s reasonable to say that, and when it’s not.

For instance, show up in a turtleneck, no staring at cleavage. Show up topless, plenty of starting. The truth is somewhere in between, and it’s going to take both men and women to figure out where.