I wanted to weigh in on this thread to ask some advice, but I realized after the fourth or fifth time writing my response in this little box that I’m not even sure what advice I’m looking for. So, instead of that, I’ll just lay out the situation.
Being a guy who’s grown up on the creepy / unattractive side, I’ve been hyper-aware of the uncomfortable factor I can create when I look at people for longer than a glance (or the appropriate focus for a conversation), and while it sometimes grates on me that this is so, I’ve learned to take it for the societal convention it is.
Recently I’ve become involved in a theater project in which one of the actresses shows a lot of cleavage (in her street clothes; we haven’t hit costumes yet), and it’s really hard not to notice. Because of this, it’s uncomfortable for me; intentionally turning away or the like would seem to heighten the situation, whereas not doing so I fear would create the very uncomfortable-ness this thread is focusing upon.
I don’t think saying something to her is appropriate; I’m not the director, it’s not my place. I know my own marginal discomfort is something I should just tolerate (and I’m trying to do so), but I also don’t want to cause any discomfort on her part.
What I’m asking then is, what’s a guy like me to do? I don’t want to make waves by making a big deal about it, or by avoiding my gaze, but at the same time I also don’t want her to feel uncomfortable (as per some comments in this thread) if I don’t.
**ArrMatey!, **they’re calling girl’s rules, so you lose either way.
Focus on her face. Look between the eyes if you’re making too much eye contact. Glance away off to the side now and then while talking. No self-conscious looking down at your hands/your feet while talking as that brings you into cleavage range. When talking with her, try to be seated if she’s seated, or standing if she’s standing.
Presumably the actress in question has a face, yes? Maybe focus your gaze on her face.
Or, you know, be a sketchy creep muttering about how all women really want the attention, just not from you, because they’re all stuck up bitches who are playing by girls’ rules, because god knows women aren’t people or anything.
Seriously Troppus, you are kicking butt in this thread and there is very little I can add.
Female, approaching 40. Prefer button down shirts (have to buy large shirts to allow for them to not be too form-fitting, and also to avoid the damn gaps), and v-necks.
Just 30 minutes ago, sitting at my desk, with the very top button buttoned (many button downs for ladies no longer button all the way up, the top button is located directly at the top of my cleavage.) Colleague in my office, sitting across the desk from me. We’ve worked together for 5 years, and no hanky-panky between us. His eyes keep flitting down to my breasts. Nothing showing, as I can’t even see my cleavage when I look down to it.
I’ve discussed this guy with other ladies in the office, and they all confirm that he does the same thing. They are just little glances, but they happen every minute or so in a discussion with the guy.
I didn’t dress to be attractive to anyone. I am wearing a button down in a color that I like, with black pants, socks and shoes. I dress to look like a business person, and still, this one guy can’t stop looking.
There’s nothing to see, except the outline of my breasts against my shirt - the only way I can do anything about that is to wear such baggy clothes that I would look unprofessional.
Its not us, its not the choices we make about our clothes. Its that some people of the male persuasion (clearly not all) need to be more discreet.
Er, is this how I came off when asking for advice on the situation? Because that’s pretty much what I’m trying to avoid… 
Whenever I read one of Saraya’s posts, I wake up the next morning face down in a storm drain with strange words carved into my skin with what appear to have been my own teeth.
This post’s words were “mid drift shirts” and “chickees”
“chickees”
I think the younger women do it so that you and other will know that they do indeed have cleavage but that you and others arent necessarily going to get a look at it. haha
Is it obvious what he is doing or are you being particularly observant? Is he being creepy about it?
Guys, this isn’t rocket science. Look into a woman’s eyes when she’s talking to you. Use your peripheral vision for the rest of it.
You don’t see what I did there…and now you’ve gone and responded like that?
You been doing meth?
A) You’re making my point for me. We as a society say ‘look don’t touch’ ‘what’s the big deal we’re all adults’ ‘I was just looking honey, my mistake’ blah blah blah.
Yet apparently, the wrong person (a.k.a. the creepy leering jerks) isn’t allowed to look while that hot guy is.
B) No, men on the whole do not have this problem. Maybe teenage boys and young twenties fraternity members, just not grown men in general.
Think maybe men see other men on television too much and get this idea that if you don’t oogle at women then you’re somehow less of a man.
Your excuse for it seems left wanting, and I’d be concerned if it was actually true, why chickees don’t stop and consider what they’re wearing.
This is how I feel about it, but expand on that: attractive women are all over! I don’t get how my fellow males get so discombobulated by the phenomenon every.single.time. You saw an attractive woman before you left home, on the train to work, on the elevator - like Chicken Man, they’re everywhere, they’re everywhere. And they’re making more all the time.
A buddy of mine lost a gorgeous girlfriend, Italian, redhead, an artist - everywhere they went he was ogling other women and she finally got sick of it. We were all like - wth?
Adapt, get used to them. You are surrounded by them all day long. You can be cured.
If alcoholics can maintain recovery in this world, if the obese can loose weight and keep it off,if teenagers can get through a whole meal without texting, you, too, have the strength to look women in the eyes while talking to them. Take it day by day. It may never be easy, but each day it gets easier.
As lame as it sounds, thank you (Nars and Dangerosa) for that advice. It’s a lot more simple than I’d expected, and in hindsight, I was over-thinking and over-complicating. Thanks!
Chickees?!
And no, I don’t let anyone look down my top. And even if I did, what’s it to you? So what if I primp a little for the cute guy in accounting and don’t primp for you? I don’t owe you jackshit merely by virtue of having boobs. I don’t owe you a look or a peek or any damn thing. I can alter my preferences any goddamn time I want.
How is not the same thing for men? “No fat chicks, please.” Do you want a cute hot girl looking at you or Missy over in finance that doesn’t bathe or shower and weighs 300 pounds? Or to put it in less looks-oriented ways, Missy, who can’t act appropriately at work and hangs all over you and makes people comment. Because that’s what this is - how to act appropriately in the right environment.
I’m at a club dressed to the nines? Sure, look, it’s expected. If you are creepy about it I will still move away and avoid it.
I’m at work, dressed for business? Do me a favor and keep your damn ogling eyes to yourself. Look surreptitiously if you absolutely must and have the self control of a hamster.
All you men are telling me is that you have NO self control. That we should treat you like children who see a cookie. Then we treat you like children, by covering up, and then we get whines about doing so!
I want to add one more thing. Hot Guy may be allowed to look, but I bet in a lot of cases he doesn’t, or doesn’t get caught doing it. He’s confident and doesn’t need to ogle miscellaneous women. Ergo, he gets more women because he’s confident about it and doesn’t come off like a creep stalker.
is some of yours missing?
Its obvious, both to me and other women. When you have a conversation that last 10 minutes, and he glances down at your chest throughout the conversation, its pretty noticeable. In other words: eye contact . . . talky . . . talky . . . (dude, my eyes are up here) . . . talky . . . eye contact. Etc.
Creepy? Not really. Annoying? Hell yes. Do I adjust my clothes? No - nothing to adjust, top button buttoned, no gaps between buttons. I’m not going to flip out and clutch the neck of my blouse over it. And when he is having more difficulty with the eye contact thing, I have looked down at myself to make sure all is as buttoned up as I think it is. But yes, highly annoying. Don’t really like working with the guy, though he does try to be personable. If I left this job and he wanted to come work for the same company, I would not recommend him. If he pulled that shit in an interview, I would not hire him.
If a co-worker decided she was sick of his shit and reported him to HR, and I were asked about it, I would agree that he looks, but would say that I didn’t consider it to be an HR worthy issue. YMMV.
But totally typical for a SDMB thread about anything to do with women. Get used to it or you’re in for a world of sad frustration and PMs with the other women around these parts. 
This thread is pretty timely, as a work situation popped up that’s totally related. I coach a debate team on the side and this last weekend, several of the coaches (all male) were discussing with me why it is that many of the other coaches don’t seem to respect me, despite me coaching for a long time and having a fairly successful team. Their consensus? It’s because I always show my boobs! Now, this is news to me-- I think I dress perfectly appropriately for someone who hangs out with teenagers (nothing- and I mean nothing --is more uncomfortable than a 16 year old boy rendered unable to speak because you leaned over his desk to go over something and your shirt bulged out a little. Needless to say, I’ve been very, very careful about what I wear ever since!).
But see, that conclusion? I had nothing to do with it. They came up with it and shared it all on their own.
Here’s the thing: I’ve got DDs whether I’m wearing a tshirt or a corset. Whether I’m in a sweatshirt or a tank top. Sure, I guess I could wear baggy tops that don’t show my shape at all and are cut up to my chin— but my big tits are still there and people will still make comments (seriously, I’ve tried that). I’m far from ashamed of my chest, but there’s literally nothing I can do about it that will stop comments and judgments-- because I’ve got big boobs, I’m instantly an attention seeking slut.
Do I sometimes like when men (outside of professional settings, of course) check me out? Of course I do! Do I care if a guy steals a glance, even at work? No, dude, have at it-- just make sure you make eye contact when we’re talking. Oh, and try not to demean me as a person because of some sacks of fat and glands hanging on my chest that I have no control over. Thanks.
Wow, some dudes sure have thin skin. Krouget has it exactly right.
ArrMaty! I recommend just treating this actress as you would any other coworker. Just focus on the business at hand. There’s no harm in admiring the goods from afar but when you interact with her resist the temptation to get a closer look. I would also add that she should interact with you in a professional manner as well, despite any “creepy” physical characteristics you may have (peg leg, hook hand?).
When I put a little extra change in the meter for a stranger, it’s for the consideration of others. When I clean up the mess my kid makes in the restaurant, it’s for others. When I choose a shirt that fits my weight and anatomy, it’s not a charitable contribution to the world, it’s because I like the shirt and want to wear it. Your analogies are anemic. I don’t wear a damn thing for you. And if you’re as misogynistic in real life as you are here, I’d prefer to be completely invisible to you were that possible.
Of course I don’t mind if a guy I’m attracted to hangs around, talks to me, or flirts. But if I’m not inviting you to hang around, talk to me, or flirt, then you damn sure aren’t welcome to ogle or create a hostile environment that makes me uncomfortable. Boobs are for me and for anyone I’m interested in, they aren’t yours to ogle. You catch a peek, appreciate it and move on. Keep your value judgments and your sour grapes to yourself and look at porn at home if you lack social graces and self control. I’m not going to entertain the lurking, ogling presence of a creeper I have nothing in common with and no interest in. Deal.
Two of my best friends are guys, and while I’m certain they are aware that I’m female as they’ve seen me in a bikini, they have the good manners to regard me as a buddy. If my blouse was gaping either would give me a heads up and I’d appreciate it. If either of them asked me to button up because he’s getting horny, I’d be furious, uncomfortable, and I’d cut him right out of my life. That’s so out of line.
As I do not require “an active thought process” to avoid staring at men’s crotches, women’s crotches, boobs, or butts, I don’t have any sympathy for your plight. You can watch porn at home. If you are in public, behave yourself and stop pretending you are rendered helpless and boorish by the mere presence of women. I think you are better than that, I think what you meant to say is “I really like boobs!” and that’s great. Enjoy them all you can in the proper context, but don’t give us shit because we were born with equipment you weren’t. Act right until you have a daughter and can develop some insight and empathy.
You don’t do anything. You address her face, and you step away if you find yourself in an uncomfortable position. The way she dresses is absolutely none of your business.
otternell, I’ve got a pretty high tolerance level for oafishness and I let most things slide because I’m even tempered, but I don’t give oglers a free pass. If I’m stuck in a conversation with an up-downer, I fiddle with my buttons, collar, or necklace with the bird finger extended while maintaining eye contact. If his glace lingers long enough to realize I’m flipping him off, he gets the message. I’ll ask “Is there something on my shirt? You keep looking down.” I’ve said “Cut it out or quit it, or I’ve had enough of that” too. I also avoid those repeat offenders because who needs to be put on the spot like that? My actions depend on what kind of person I’m talking to and in what situation, but I rarely let it go if it’s a repeat offender. I’ve got things to do, I’m not at work or school for the purpose of entertaining weirdos.
You guys are doing this wrong. Enjoy seeing boobs in the wild? Then pressure your creeper friends to stop lurking, hovering, and spooking us. Make it casual, and act like you’ve seen a real, live pair now and then and trust me: we’ll make ourselves more comfortable and we’ll relax the hypervigilant cover up game. Stop perving up the workplace and we’ll roll with the first thing we try on in the morning, and we’ll be less nervous or suspicious about your interest in our staplers.
These landmines are why relationships are so difficult for many people. We are chased around and intimidated by oglers then blamed for the behavior of the offenders. Have any of you oglers ever seen pornography, exotic dancers, girls in swimwear at the beach, nude statues or prostitutes? Well, you aren’t seeing them at work or in the grocery store. You are seeing real live, regular people whose arrangement of features was decided long before we were born. If some of us have a figure you appreciate, good for you. You want to pay us a compliment or throw a grin in our direction? Go for it. But don’t follow us around, lay in wait at the bottom of stairs, lean over our desks, back us into corners, ogle us until we are squirming in discomfort. We don’t exist for your entertainment. You have other outlets for that: use them.
For the girls in this thread, ain’t this a bitch? Though they can be a nuisance while jogging, these things can be the most fun in the right situations. They are awesome in every size, they set us apart from the guys, they help give life for Pete’s sake. We give them cute names, assign part of our identity to them, let their size ans shape dictate our fashion choices. Damn shame some men have to objectify and stigmatize breasts and spoil it for everyone else.