# Showing Mangetout that God doesn't exist in 'another thread'. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2002, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268 "2002-05-22T09:18:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/41 "2002-05-23T15:56:16Z")
“”"""""""""""""""""“If so, this assumes (falsely, I believe) that the reasons for our failure to fully know must always be the same.”""""""""""""""" Not necessarily. It just so happens, that in this example, God has no further properties do distinguish God from ‘anything’. We don’t even have an ‘aware’ being… God is interchangable with a scoop of vanilla ice cream for all we know. To suggest that God is a sysnonym of ‘anything’ is not particularly important to people IMO, without possessing some additional qualities. -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/42 "2002-05-23T16:33:58Z")
One way to consider this is: Something exists. Anything is one or more of something. God is a synonym for anything. God exists. You can also state. Change is a fact. Ape turning into man is change. Evolution is a synonym for change. Ape turning into man is a fact. Try making up any new word and applying the same principle. I’m partial to ‘Fluffygrae’ myself. -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/43 "2002-05-23T20:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > \*\*"""""""""""""""""""“If so, this assumes (falsely, I believe) that the reasons for our failure to fully know must always be the same.”""""""""""""""" > > Not necessarily. It just so happens, that in this example, God has no further properties do distinguish God from ‘anything’. > We don’t even have an ‘aware’ being… > > God is interchangable with a scoop of vanilla ice cream for all we know. To suggest that God is a sysnonym of ‘anything’ is not particularly important to people IMO, without possessing some additional qualities. > > -Justhink \*\* Sorry, I just don’t getit; how exactly (in simple terms please) did we get to not having an aware being and not being able to tell if God is a scoop of ice cream? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/44 "2002-05-23T20:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > \*\*Change is a fact. > Ape turning into man is change. > Evolution is a synonym for change. > Ape turning into man is a fact. > \*\* A wonderful demonstration of how logic can lead you to a totally false conclusion, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/45 "2002-05-23T23:29:01Z")
“”"""""""""""“Sorry, I just don’t getit; how exactly (in simple terms please) did we get to not having an aware being and not being able to tell if God is a scoop of ice cream?”"""""""""""""""" Apologise for apologising ! No wait, Don’t apologise. Gah! Forgot it… =) We don’t have an aware being, because _awareness_ was not included as a property of God, when God was being defined. That’s why properties are so important, when determining possibility or meaning or existence. Without properties, all words become sysnonyms of each other via meta terms like “everything” or “anything” or “something”. God = Everything (Well great, we already have a word for that. It’s called ‘everything’. Thanks for the new synonym, but I’ll pass, thank you… although, it is easier to spell … hmm…) As for ice cream, or anything, for that matter… I assumed by analogy that we consider ice-cream to not be aware of itself in the way that we are. ‘Our’ type of awareness is referred to as: self-recursive. I don’t think it would be exceedingly difficult to argue for self-recursive awareness in ice-cream… it would not be viable IMO to argue that such a property is meaningful however. “”"""""""""""“A wonderful demonstration of how logic can lead you to a totally false conclusion, thanks.”""""""""""""" A few implied terms are ommitted, which creates an ‘optical’ illusion of sorts. It would not be difficult to break that line apart with a formal logical analysis. Try seeing where the term “if” makes a difference in there =) -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/46 "2002-05-24T07:17:07Z")
OK, so where are we going with this? Who didn’t include awareness in their definition of God? Who said God = Everything? None of this is making very much sense to me at all. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/47 "2002-05-24T10:17:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Ape turning into man is a fact. Also, Sasquatch seen with Elvis in Biloxy Burger King. Film at eleven. ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/48 "2002-05-24T10:19:45Z")
Ok, let’s back up here a little bit. Does this charachterize the statement ‘better’? Human beings cannot know (everything) about an aware being (imaginary or not), described by the word: God All we know is: The visual symbol associated with this being is: GOD This being can be imginary or not This being is aware Humans cannot know everything about: GOD Does that charachterize your argument? Do you disagree so far with any of these conclusions? -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/49 "2002-05-24T10:23:12Z")
Why should my argument allow the being I call God to be imaginary? ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/50 "2002-05-24T11:22:49Z")
“”"""""""""“Why should my argument allow the being I call God to be imaginary?”""""""""""""" That’s what I’ve been trying to say all along!! It’s your argument, your God, your conditions… You tell me what your God is, and I will do with those conditions what I described in the OP. Your God doesn’t have to be imaginary if you don’t want it to be! That’s up to you. Up until now, this thread has been conserned with why properties are necessary to even humor the idea of God. Until we establish that, it is unreasonable to continue, unless you can convince ‘us’ or yourself otherwise. -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/51 "2002-05-24T11:26:35Z")
I’ve been trying to get _some_ properties of your God to analyze. Without those properties, there is no need to follow up… I ‘win’ by default. If your God is defined by you (the properties you give it) as: That which cannot be known by humans. That’s _all_ I have to go on. Your God has NO other properties associated with it. Understand? -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/52 "2002-05-24T11:37:20Z")
I’m finding it hard to nail down a pithy list of properties of God; you will no doubt see my inability to find grand enough words to express the concepts as evidence that the concepts are meaningless, or that I have spent no time at all thinking about them. But my full comprehension of something is not required in order for that something to exist in a completely real sense; my knowledge of calculus approaches ever closer to zero (but without actually getting there); my understanding of quantum theory is so poor that I cannot tell whether it is true or false or some undetermined point in between; it may be that these concepts are forever out of the reach of my puny mind, yet I do occasionally catch meaningful glimpses of the truth that everybody else claims is there. I’m sure that I would be in a lot of trouble if I tried to imply that these concepts are rendered _generally_ meaningless by my own failure to grasp them; the fact that (not literally)everybody else has no trouble with them means nothing to me. In a similar (but not exactly the same) way, I believe that the being ‘God’ is too big a banana to **fully** fit in the eggcup of my universe, but that doesn’t stop me catching meaningful glimpses. I see (on preview) that you have ‘won’ - well done!, I must therefore be convinced now. ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/53 "2002-05-24T11:39:13Z")
You haven’t really given me any properties to go on yet Mangetout. I am assuming that when you started filling out those questions in reply to the OP, that you were scrapping that and providing a more conclusive list. Many of the answers there were like: Well… sorta, Hmm, not sure really, possibly, I think so, maybe, could be… What kind of God is _that_ ! Why on earth do you believe in it?! You don’t even sound like you believe your own God! =) -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/54 "2002-05-24T11:45:48Z")
Because as I have said all along; one can experience something without needing (or being able) to fully understand or define it; you seem to have assumed that my belief in God is rooted in some dry logical process or scrutiny of some dusty manuscripts. This is not the case; God is a person with whom I claiim to have experienced interaction; a person that I claim to be getting to know (if you’d asked me to describe the properties of my wife (apart from the obvious visual ones) after my first enthralling encounter with her, I’d have had the same kind of problems as I’ve had here). ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/55 "2002-05-24T11:59:37Z")
Do you ever contemplate the striking simiarities with what you are describing to a hallucination? Do you believe that hallucinations are possible? Do you believe that a human being can conjure up an image of something that hold no relevance to the outside world whatsoever? There are people who sleep and dream with their eyes _open_. Think about that =) Does it seem improper to you that people articulate a difference between people and events they experience in a dream, from those not in a dream? What about people who cannot tell the difference, and speak of the two ‘worlds’ as the same world? It would be _very_ confusing to those in the waking world, until they finally realized; “Wow, that person doesn’t know the difference between a dream and being awake!” It would probably take a while to figure it out too! There are forms of schizophrenia so severe, that people literally conjure images with all the senses engaged — fully immersed in a virtual world, locked in a room… occasionally interacting with people on the outside. Do you conceed, that this occurs … and possibly that this may exist on a continuum? -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/56 "2002-05-24T12:06:57Z")
Do you believe that there is a difference between simulation and reality? Do you believe in such a thing as reality? Do you believe in such a thing as simulation? Do you know what a game is? Do you know what a role-playing game is? Do you believe a person can choose to participate in a role-playing game, while others believe they are actually _in_ the game? -Justhink ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/57 "2002-05-24T12:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > **Do you ever contemplate the striking simiarities with what you are describing to a hallucination?** Oh absolutely, I also sometimes contemplate whether I am just a brain in a jar or whether the entire universe is a simulation or whether this is all just a dream of mine (or somebody else’s). \*\* > [@](#): > > Do you believe that hallucinations are possible?\*\* It would be hard not to. \*\* > [@](#): > > Do you believe that a human being can conjure up an image of something that hold no relevance to the outside world whatsoever? \*\*Yes, I read a lot of SF. I would find it most interesting, though, if a person’s brain spontaneously conjured up something that **did** hold relevance to the outside world… > [@](#): > > \*\*There are people who sleep and dream with their eyes _open_. Think about that =) \*\*I didn’t know that, but I’m thinking about it right now, as instructed. > [@](#): > > \*\*Does it seem improper to you that people articulate a difference between people and events they experience in a dream, from those not in a dream? \*\*Improper? no, but not all sane people do articulate a difference; my (ver young) children will often refer to something that they experienced in a dream as if it were real. I mention this only out of interest, but feel free to make inference about hereditary insanity if it suits your position. > [@](#): > > \*\*What about people who cannot tell the difference, and speak of the two ‘worlds’ as the same world? It would be _very_ confusing to those in the waking world, until they finally realized; “Wow, that person doesn’t know the difference between a dream and being awake!” It would probably take a while to figure it out too! \*\*Crikey! > [@](#): > > **There are forms of schizophrenia so severe, that people literally conjure images with all the senses engaged — fully immersed in a virtual world, locked in a room… occasionally interacting with people on the outside. > Do you conceed, that this occurs … and possibly that this may exist on a continuum?** I am not a psychiatrist, but I see no reason to refute it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/58 "2002-05-24T13:02:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Justhink \* > **Do you believe that there is a difference between simulation and reality?** To the outside observer, or to the entities inside the simulation? > [@](#): > > \*\*Do you believe in such a thing as reality? \*\*I’d be happy for you to prove it exists, perhaps you can start by defining one of it’s properties; what is reality similar to? > [@](#): > > \*\*Do you believe in such a thing as simulation? \*\*yes, I’m designing some simulations right now (or I will be, when I can tear myself away from the net. > [@](#): > > \*\*Do you know what a game is? Beh! what are these primitive Earth ‘games’ of which you speak? > [@](#): > > \*\*Do you know what a role-playing game is? \*\*Yes, someone told me that they are evil, is this true? > [@](#): > > \*\*Do you believe a person can choose to participate in a role-playing game, while others believe they are actually _in_ the game? \*\*I remember this, yes, from the Chick tract. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/59 "2002-05-24T22:53:33Z")
In all seriousness though; can you tell me what reality is, or at least what it _can be compared to_? Or is it something beyond descriptionand comparison that you can only _experience_? (in which case I’d venture to remind you that such a terribly subjective statement probably indicates that you are hallucinating). ---
**Author:** ![Justhink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@Justhink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justhink)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268/60 "2002-05-25T03:49:09Z")
“”""""""""""""In all seriousness though; can you tell me what reality is, or at least what it can be compared to? Or is it something beyond descriptionand comparison that you can only experience? (in which case I’d venture to remind you that such a terribly subjective statement probably indicates that you are hallucinating).""""""""""" Working on it (my general topics to address here and other threads … arghh… I even abandoned a thread a few months ago close to the same topic :: lots of work it seems =)… On this point however, I will state that reality is that which has no logical inconsistency. That is how you weed out one from the other IMO. I can offer examples when I compile this request. I’m starting to think that I want one of those fancy symbolic formulas for myself… maybe I’ll give a go at constructing one. -Justhink [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-mangetout-that-god-doesnt-exist-in-another-thread/110268.md?page=4)