# Showing preferred pronouns in bios, e-mail signatures, etc **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651 "2021-07-30T17:21:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/141 "2021-08-01T17:24:05Z")
Never mind. I think @puzzlegal answered the question I hadn’t worked out how to ask yet while I was away. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/142 "2021-08-01T17:45:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Can we legitimately compare the scale and scope of misogyny with pronoun tagging? It’s an interesting question – certainly, misogyny has been more widespread and longer lasting. However, transphobia has been much more deadly per person, considering the sheer differences in number between transgendered people and women. But, a lot of those problems came from the very default position that you mention above – I think we can learn from history and avoid that same problem when it comes to LGBTQ+. For example, two years ago, a woman started in our group. I found out that she had a newborn at home, and was already back at work. We were talking about how Serena Williams was already back at it, and I mentioned that I was impressed with her, and also with my new coworker. She seemed slightly uncomfortable and didn’t really respond. I found out later that it was her wife that had the baby, not her. I had assumed by default that she was the bio-mom in a straight relationship, and made a slight fool of myself, and made her feel uncomfortable, all in one nugget. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/143 "2021-08-01T19:04:22Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I found out later that it was her wife that had the baby, not her. We all, at one time or another, find ourselves in various awkward social situations. Knowing her preferred pronoun may or may not have been helpful to you under the circumstance. Would you be in favor of people tagging the type of relationships they conduct in their private lives? I assume not. I guess this raises a questions about how far we are willing to go to avoid the myriad awkward social situations we find ourselves blundering into and whether there is a line of disclosure that goes too far because it begins to intrude on people’s privacy. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/144 "2021-08-01T20:13:28Z")
Right, that was an example on how assuming defaults led that awkward situation. Pronouns had nothing to do with it. I guess I’m just not communicating clearly in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/145 "2021-08-01T20:58:10Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I just think it’s impolite and bad form to move a thread in a different direction without at least acknowledging that you’d like to discuss something off-topic, but related. Seeing as the very title of the thread and the OP deals with the implications of doing this in the workplace and potential negative effects then what I’ve posted, regarding potential negative effects in the workplace, is bang on topic. Only you seem to be complaining. and as for diverting the discussion off-topic > [@RitterSport](#): > > For example, two years ago, a woman started in our group. I found out that she had a newborn at home, and was already back at work. We were talking about how Serena Williams was already back at it, and I mentioned that I was impressed with her, and also with my new coworker. She seemed slightly uncomfortable and didn’t really respond. I found out later that it was her wife that had the baby, not her. I had assumed by default that she was the bio-mom in a straight relationship, and made a slight fool of myself, and made her feel uncomfortable, all in one nugget. Is this more or less relevant than my posts when it comes to the subject of preferred pronouns? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/146 "2021-08-01T21:16:12Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > For example, two years ago, a woman started in our group. I found out that she had a newborn at home, and was already back at work. We were talking about how Serena Williams was already back at it, and I mentioned that I was impressed with her, and also with my new coworker. She seemed slightly uncomfortable and didn’t really respond. I found out later that it was her wife that had the baby, not her. I had assumed by default that she was the bio-mom in a straight relationship, and made a slight fool of myself, and made her feel uncomfortable, all in one nugget. It’s a shame she didn’t feel comfortable enough to share that, then you could all have avoided the awkwardness. There was a lesbian couple in one of my antenatal classes and they were straightforward about it. But honestly I think you were kind of tactless in any case. Most mothers of very young babies who go back to work do so because they don’t have much choice, not because they want to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/147 "2021-08-01T21:59:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I would urge you to consider publishing your pronouns if that’s done in places you frequent. If someone addressed you as “ma’am” over the phone, would you correct them? Would you be annoyed to get an email addressed to Ms Odesio? Then consider publishing your pronouns. It’s not an announcement of gender insecurity. And if people like you post your pronouns, it looks less like an announcement of insecurity to other people like you when someone who does get accidentally misgendered does it. You are actively helping that person look more normal and more secure. Listing one’s pronouns is not something commonly done in any of the areas I frequent. I have a few peers who have their pronouns listed on LinkedIn, though, some to think of it, none of my male peers do this just a few women. Well, my field skews more towards women so I suppose I won’t read anything into it. And, no, it doesn’t upset me if I receive an email addressed to Ms. Odesio any more than I’m upset at cashier who calls me ma’am. Whoever sent that email probably has no idea who I am and the cashier who called me ma’am misspoke rather than misgendered me. > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > If you’re having trouble with the idea, just imagine a good friend, who happens to be trans, asked you politely: “Hey friend, if you don’t mind, it would be great if you would put your pronouns in your email sig. It would help me and others like me out a little.” Then act accordingly. “Hey, friend, I understand where you’re coming from. But I just don’t feel comfortable putting my preferred pronouns in my email signature. I fully support those who wish to add it to their signature but I would prefer not to. Thank you for understanding.” I’m not kidding here when I saw putting my preferred pronouns in my signature makes me uncomfortable. It just feels odd to me and I’d rather not. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/148 "2021-08-01T22:21:27Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > “Hey, friend, I understand where you’re coming from. But I just don’t feel comfortable putting my preferred pronouns in my email signature. I fully support those who wish to add it to their signature but I would prefer not to. Thank you for understanding.” I’m not kidding here when I saw putting my preferred pronouns in my signature makes me uncomfortable. It just feels odd to me and I’d rather not. “Of course, no problem! Do whatever you feel comfortable with.” I cannot imagine any of the trans and non-binary people I know having any problem with what you just said. And if they did, they’d be in the wrong, IMO. But if you said, “Hey, friend, I understand where you’re coming from. But this pronoun thing is an empty gesture, just left-wing virtue signallers trying to make themselves feel better.” That they (and I) would strongly disagree with. PS. Just as an FYI, I learned recently that the simple “pronouns” is preferred (ha!) over “preferred pronouns,” as the latter can make it seem as if gender/sexuality is simply a preference. So, you might ask “What are your pronouns?” as opposed to “What are your preferred pronouns?” I had been using “preferred pronouns” for the last several years - there is always learning to be done! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/149 "2021-08-01T22:59:44Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Is this more or less relevant than my posts when it comes to the subject of preferred pronouns? It was meant to be a direct response to **QuickSilver** talking about default assumptions. Yours was out of nowhere. > [@DemonTree](#): > > But honestly I think you were kind of tactless in any case. Man, is that ever true. Lesson learned, there. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/150 "2021-08-01T23:03:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@filmore](#): > > > > Just thinking over my career in a multi-national company, I can’t think of anyone who used a non-obvious pronoun. > > That is completely the opposite of my multi-national experience. > > Would you say Tendai’s pronouns are obvious to you? What about Joo-hyun? Xi? Joss? Frankie? Özgür? Sascha? This does bring up another issue though - there are lots of times when you encounter a new person in some circumstances where you definitely don’t know their sex or gender from their visual presentation. For instance, getting an email from a new person. Reading a report or an academic paper. I hate the thought that the practice of gender labelling might spread as far as reports and academic papers (which it might - after all, people might want to get in contact with authors of things they read) Joo-hyuns Özgürs and Saschas who happen to be women are **disadvantaged** by signalling “by the way, I’m a woman” in those sort of contexts, since women still have a problem of not being taken quite as seriously as a man (especially in male-dominant circumstances) What we really need are more gender-neutral options. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/151 "2021-08-01T23:43:26Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > But if you said, “Hey, friend, I understand where you’re coming from. But this pronoun thing is an empty gesture, just left-wing virtue signallers trying to make themselves feel better.” That they (and I) would strongly disagree with. Bingo. The important thing is to foster an environment where each person is free to be their genuine self. (Provided their genuine self isn’t an asshole of course.) Since we’re largely in agreement here let’s fight about something stupid. I know. You pick on my avatar and I’ll pick on yours. GO! > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > PS. Just as an FYI, I learned recently that the simple “pronouns” is preferred (ha!) over “preferred pronouns,” as the latter can make it seem as if gender/sexuality is simply a preference. So, you might ask “What are your pronouns?” as opposed to “What are your preferred pronouns?” I had been using “preferred pronouns” for the last several years - there is always learning to be done! It is so hard to keep up sometimes and these kind of changes are why I am not entirely unsympathetic to some complaints about political correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/152 "2021-08-01T23:45:03Z")
If you don’t want to do it, don’t do it. If you don’t want others to do it then either change jobs, the laws, or the culture. Is you just want to complain and virtue signal how you find it all so silly, go ahead and do that too. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2021, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/153 "2021-08-01T23:47:44Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > And in the general population, isn’t transgender like .5% of the population, so about 1 in 200 people? And even then, I would guess that many transgender present consistent with their gender. So how many people in general are going to use pronouns which are not consistent with how they present? 1 in 400? 1 in 1000? It’s just not going to be that common in most companies that there is a person who uses pronouns which are not obvious from how they present. I’m sure there are companies and industries which tend to have a lot of transgender and otherwise gender fluid people so it makes sense there, but that’s not the case in most companies. But the issue of gender neutral and foreign names is extremely common, yet we have generally not needed to put pronouns in our sigs to figure things out. This is exactly my point, except I understand the figure is even lower - there were, according to the [Australian Bureau of Statistics, 1260 “Sex and gender diverse” people in Australia during the 2016 census](https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/2071.0~2016~Main%20Features~Sex%20and%20Gender%20Diversity%20in%20the%202016%20Census~100). The ABS rightly note that’s not a representative figure on account of issues with filling in the info and people’s understandable willingness not to identify as something unusual on a government document, but even if you multiply the reported figure by 10, we’re still only talking about 12,000 people out of 24 million. So statistically, most people (at least in Australia) _don’t_ have transgender co-workers (at least in a “people they interact with in person each day” sense) and most transgender people rightly just want to be treated like everyone else and generally have pronouns that match their presenting identity. Which brings me back to my original assertion that listing pronouns in social media profiles and e-mail signatures is virtue signalling and not something that should be encouraged unless the listee has a very unusual name or is really leaning into the “I’m using unconventional pronouns” thing. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/154 "2021-08-02T00:15:39Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You pick on my avatar and I’ll pick on yours. GO! Did a three-year-old draw yours? … Oh, shit, that works equally well on mine 😬 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/155 "2021-08-02T00:18:37Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Did a three-year-old draw yours? It was the first thing I ever airbrushed. Awww, man. That hurt! ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/156 "2021-08-02T00:19:20Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Which brings me back to my original assertion that listing pronouns in social media profiles and e-mail signatures is virtue signalling and not something that should be encouraged unless the listee has a very unusual name or is really leaning into the “I’m using unconventional pronouns” thing. Your assertion is incorrect. Please see [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/131). ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/157 "2021-08-02T00:20:35Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It was the first thing I ever airbrushed. Haha, I actually love it. I would totally wear a shirt with that on it. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/158 "2021-08-02T01:05:54Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Your assertion is incorrect. Please see [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/131). Firstly, No it isn’t. It’s just different to your worldview, which isn’t the same thing as “incorrect”. Secondly: None of what you said in that post invalidates my assertion on the issue. Again, different viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/159 "2021-08-02T01:58:47Z")
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but your worldview will be just a little more exclusionary and a little more difficult to non-binary people with zero benefit for you (assuming you’re not uncomfortable showing your pronouns). It really seems like the smallest possible gesture, but could make a real difference to someone else. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2021, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651/160 "2021-08-02T03:49:29Z")
Because if you get into the really non-standard set, like ser and xe, you need all three? That’s been my assumption. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/showing-preferred-pronouns-in-bios-e-mail-signatures-etc/947651.md?page=9)