# Shrub: "...marriage is between a man and a woman." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881 "2003-07-02T22:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/61 "2003-07-03T13:39:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > **The Gore side wanted those unpostmarked ballots tossed. The Bush side immediately took up the cry of “count every vote” in six heavily Republican-leaning counties, including Hillsborough. The ballots were contested in the [Florida federal district court](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/documents/20001209_xnjdo.pdf) and it was decided that the Supremacy clause overrode Florida’s own election laws against counting absentee ballots without postmarks. Over six hundred ballots which were in violation of Florida’s own election law were knowingly counted. Bush won by 537.** The District Court ruled that the rejection of these ballots violated federal law in a national election. OK. I may be completely missing your point, but why are you explaining this to me in response to my point regarding the ruling of the US Supreme Court that halted the recount permitted by the Florida SC? And, tdn, you may diasgree with the results of the analysis conducted by the independent newspaper consortium. But given that analysis, you and I have vastly different definitions of what “pure conjecture” is. You definition apparently means “a statement supported by research and analysis.” ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/62 "2003-07-03T13:55:04Z")
It took seventy five years for women to get the vote. A few years ago my girlfriends and I had a party to celebrate the fact that we’d now had had the vote for longer it took to get it. And, of course, once we got the vote, it was another 40 or 50 before the other stuff started to even out (and we still have a way to go). We fight these battles for the long term, recognizing that we may never live to see the big changes ourselves. And yet, in this one, the changes have been fairly astounding. No gay marriage yet, but domestic partnerships, civil unions, anti discrimination laws. Companies that offer benefits to partners. Not that we should be content, but we do want to enjoy our victories as well as recognize how far we have yet to go. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/63 "2003-07-03T14:20:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*I may be completely missing your point, but why are you explaining this to me in response to my point regarding the ruling of the US Supreme Court that halted the recount permitted by the Florida SC? > \*\* I’m mostly with you on the SC thing; I just want to make sure we’re not using an argument over that issue to obscure the fact that fraudulent votes were the key to Bush’s election. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/64 "2003-07-03T15:46:52Z")
> [@](#): > > call it something other than “marriage”. “Skoobage”, maybe. So het couples get married and gay couples get skoobaged. Shouldn’t that be “skoobied”? Was Scooby-Do a secret message to children to engage in long-term same-sex relationships? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/65 "2003-07-03T15:54:47Z")
Must’ve been, don’t mind me. After all, one puts jelly on snacks, right? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/66 "2003-07-03T16:03:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Revtim: It’s a falsehood to say that Bush was not elected to the presidency. That you do not understand the Electoral College system does not mean that the man wasn’t elected. Give it a rest. Now, if you really do understand that system and still purport that the man wasn’t elected to the presidency, then you’re really propogating a falsehood. \*\* Uh, you meant to address this to someone other than me, right? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/67 "2003-07-03T16:19:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by don’t mind me \* > \*\*Shouldn’t that be “skoobied”? Was Scooby-Do a secret message to children to engage in long-term same-sex relationships? \*\* No, but Fred was gay. ---
**Author:** ![Toaster52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@Toaster52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toaster52)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/68 "2003-07-03T16:28:47Z")
I see this is degenerating into another Was Bush Elected Or Not Threads. May I humbly suggest that if those involved want to continue that fight, they do so in another thread? Now, then…FWIW, I happen to agree with what **Fred** said, :_“It doesn’t follow that being against gay marriage is being against gays. Marriage is, after all, more a cultural than legal. The problem comes from all the legal rights that come with marriage that are denied to gays as a result of gays being denied the ability to marry.”_ I know I’m going to sound old-fashioned, but I happen to think of marriage as being between a man and a woman. Perhaps, as has been suggested, a different label for a homosexual bonding? But then you run into the spectre of seperate but equal, like seperate drinking fountains. This issue is the hardest that I have ever struggled with. I have to admit that my reaction is purely visceral; I have a firm and unshakeable conviction to equal rights for anybody and everybody. Yet somehow, when it comes to this issue, I want to equivocate. I _want_ to say that homosexuals can marry, but my skin just crawls when I think that. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/69 "2003-07-03T16:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > \*\*I’m mostly with you on the SC thing; I just want to make sure we’re not using an argument over that issue to obscure the fact that fraudulent votes were the key to Bush’s election. \*\* I’m not making that argument either way, though I’m not sure your contention–fraudulent votes decided the election–is accurate based on your cite. The District Court did not recognize these as fraudulent ballots. Why are you certain they are? And believe me, I am open to any evidence you may have. I am on record on this board as saying it is perfectly plausible to me that more voters left the Florida polls believing that they voted for Gore than those believing they voted for Bush. But that’s not the same to me as saying the Republicans stole the election, not if by that one means that different behavior would have led to a different outcome. And we can take this to a different thread to avoid further hijack as was suggested, but I suspect it’s all been said at this point. I just can’t seem to resist responding to the incessant “the SC stole the election” cries. The SC, in this particular scenario, may have been short-sighted, they may have been partisan, they may have been outright villains (I’m not conceding they were), but ultimately they did not decide the election. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/70 "2003-07-03T16:48:49Z")
Sorry to get back to the topic… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > I presume that’s DO **M** A you’re speaking of, **Apos** , not DOA. Other than that, you have it right, and **chula** seems to be skipping a step. Once a state legalizes gay marriage, the DOMA will be able to be challenged as violating the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution. Until such time as the first state gay marriage legalization occurs, the DOMA is functionally moot (as far as I uncerstand the issue).\*\* Yes, I was skipping the step in which DOMA is ruled unconstitutional. I’ve never heard any serious jurists argue that DOMA might be constitutional. Even its supporters realize this - that’s why they’re pushing for a constitutional amendment. > [@](#): > > But aren’t we about to see an actual gay marriage legalization occur in some European country? What happens the first time that country sends over a gay or lesbian ambassador with his/her family? The full faith and credit laws only applies to US states, not foreign countries. So there’s no legal obligation to recognize those marriages in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/71 "2003-07-03T16:51:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*No, but Fred was gay. \*\* I thought it was Velma. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/72 "2003-07-03T16:57:59Z")
Sorry 'bout that, Rev. 'Twas meant for DtC. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/73 "2003-07-03T18:09:05Z")
**chula** , the United States has treaties with at least one country with gay marriages (Canada) that make recognising marriages contracted there part of the supreme law of the land. (And I would be surprised if there weren’t a few other such treaties around.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/74 "2003-07-03T18:32:24Z")
Dick Cheney’s daughter Mary IS a lesbian, btw. Didn’t she recently break ties with the GOP? ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/75 "2003-07-03T18:47:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Huh. And that would make [Bill Clinton](http://www.cnn.com/US/9609/10/gay.marriage/)…a mush-brained, shallow, fundie-head as well. Correct? \*\* Or more recently, [Hillary Clinton (on WNYC 6/18/2003 w/Brian Lehrer)](http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2003_06_15_dish_archive.html#10562172963670667) a two faced shrew? “Marriage means something different. You know, marriage has a meaning that I think should be kept as it historically has been, but I see no reason whatsoever why people in committed relationships can’t have, you know, many of the same rights and the same, you know, respect for their unions that they are seeking and I would like to see that be more accepted than it is…First of all, I think that it is unlikely, if not impossible, to be something (in the context of same-sex marriage) nationally accepted in our country, but I also think that we can realize the same results for may committed couples by urging that states and localities adopt civil union and domestic partnership laws.” ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/76 "2003-07-03T18:52:33Z")
Mary Cheney recently split with the phony-baloney Repuclican Unity Coalition, which was set up so that the GOP could pretend to have some vague interest in gays without actually having to _do_ anything. Supposedly she broke ties to devote more time to her career but recently signed on to her dad’s re-election campaign. Toaster > [@](#): > > I want to say that homosexuals can marry, but my skin just crawls when I think that. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/77 "2003-07-03T19:04:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Huh? Did I miss a memo? No, you missed a nudie party. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/78 "2003-07-03T19:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnBckWLD \* > \*\*Or more recently, [Hillary Clinton (on WNYC 6/18/2003 w/Brian Lehrer)](http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2003_06_15_dish_archive.html#10562172963670667) a two faced shrew? > > “Marriage means something different. You know, marriage has a meaning that I think should be kept as it historically has been, but I see no reason whatsoever why people in committed relationships can’t have, you know, many of the same rights and the same, you know, respect for their unions that they are seeking and I would like to see that be more accepted than it is…First of all, I think that it is unlikely, if not impossible, to be something (in the context of same-sex marriage) nationally accepted in our country, but I also think that we can realize the same results for may committed couples by urging that states and localities adopt civil union and domestic partnership laws.” \*\* Hillary’s words are weasely and gutless (and pointless since the only people she would offend by supporting gay marriage are people who already hate her anyway) but at least she says that she would support civil unions. Would Shrub say as much? ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/79 "2003-07-03T21:00:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilairen \* > \*\ ***chula** , the United States has treaties with at least one country with gay marriages (Canada) that make recognising marriages contracted there part of the supreme law of the land. (And I would be surprised if there weren’t a few other such treaties around.) \*\* Damn hamsters ate my post! Anyway… Do you have a cite for that treaty? I knew that the US commonly recognized Canadian marriages, but I never heard that such matters were regulated by treaty. There’s no constitutional requirement that foreign marriages be recognized, so DOMA would control in that case. There was a 1982 Court of Appeals case that said that for immigration purposes, marriage is between a man and a woman, and DOMA bolsters this. ---
**Author:** ![Obvious\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Obvious\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obvious_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/80 "2003-07-03T22:31:15Z")
Ugggh… side rant. I’m tired of everyone who disagree’s with gay lifestyle being labeled “Homophobic.” Like being gay has become so PC that you dont dare state differing opinions. Accepting and respecting someone’s belief’s is a two-way street. Nuff said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881.md?page=5)