# Shrub: "...marriage is between a man and a woman." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 2, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881 "2003-07-02T22:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/81 "2003-07-03T22:44:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Obvious Guy \* > \*\*Ugggh… side rant. I’m tired of everyone who disagree’s with gay lifestyle being labeled “Homophobic.” Like being gay has become so PC that you dont dare state differing opinions. Accepting and respecting someone’s belief’s is a two-way street. Nuff said. \*\* I respect those people who still assert that the world is, in fact, flat instead of round. I in no way oppose their holding those beliefs or attempting to persuade others that they are correct. I think they’re utterly wrong, but I in no way want to shut them up. Similarly, I respect those who oppose some odd construct of “gay lifestyle” based on religious or personal convictions. I would oppose any attempt to shut them up by force (For example, I am whole-heartedly against boycotting Michael Savage). The difference is a lot of people who hold such opinions would love to thrust their convictions down _my_ throat. See the Defense of Marriage amendment currently being brought up. Another thread asking for rational, well-reasoned arguments against gay marriage that relied on the public good pretty much hit the bottom of the barrel. As you say, respect is a two way street. I’m currently not getting a lot from people who condemn the “gay lifestyle”. My lifestyle, btw, mostly involves sitting around on the computer, in a classroom, with a handful of friends, or in front of the TV. I’ve been to a gay dance club once. I’ve yet to see, let alone be offered, drugs of any type. And, much to my dismay, I’ve not been seeing a lot of that promiscuity every fundamentalist seems so worried about. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/82 "2003-07-03T23:21:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Ugggh… side rant. I’m tired of everyone who disagree’s with gay lifestyle being labeled “Homophobic.” Like being gay has become so PC that you dont dare state differing opinions. Accepting and respecting someone’s belief’s is a two-way street. Nuff said. Oh yay, it’s the “You don’t tolerate the intolerant so you’re intolerant” song! Fuck that stupid shit. > [@](#): > > (For example, I am whole-heartedly against boycotting Michael Savage) Why? His right to speak doesn’t guarantee him the right to an audience. > [@](#): > > And, much to my dismay, I’ve not been seeing a lot of that promiscuity every fundamentalist seems so worried about. We’ve had this discussion once already, sweetie… ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/83 "2003-07-03T23:33:46Z")
**chula** _prods at the net_ I may have overspoken; the closest I can come to a cite on that is someone asking if anyone’s gone through all the treaties to which the US is signatory trying to figure out if this is relevant. (I would note, though, that if someone goes to that work – and I just spent a half-hour trying to go through Treaties in Force and can’t take any more of it – those treaties have equivalent force to the constitution, so no, DOMA wouldn’t rule. Article VI.) I also found cites for the general prevalence of comity, but that’s voluntary, and not with force of law – just custom, and a Canadian site noting that the United States argued for international custom being enshrined in national law as support for the idea that Canada should do the same. (!) **Obvious Guy** : Personally I’m against the “objects to the gay lifestyle” lifestyle. I find it morally abhorrent, but you people are free to do whatever you want in the privacy of your own homes. ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/84 "2003-07-04T01:26:45Z")
I agree with **Obvious Guy** in a backhanded way, in that I think there is (or at least should be) a distinction between homophobia, the literal “fear” of homosexuals characterized by the heebeejeebees (spelling?) which **Toaster52** talked about (“but my skin just crawls when I think [about gay marriage]”), and bigotry, that is regular old prejudice against gays. One doesn’t necessarily mean the other. I fail to see how you’ve demonstrated either in this case, **Dio**. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/85 "2003-07-04T01:32:59Z")
If thinking about gay sex makes you feel oogy-then, well, DON’T THINK ABOUT IT. D’uh. ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/86 "2003-07-04T01:36:52Z")
As a point of order, **Toaster’s** “skin crawl” reaction didn’t come from thinking gay **sex,** but rather from thinking about gay **marriage.** ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/87 "2003-07-04T01:46:37Z")
This whole … “Bush said this,” “Oh yeah? Clinton said this,” “Yeah! And Hillary said this,” … like it makes a difference. I voted for Clinton twice. I would have voted for him a third time if they’d have let me. But the day he says, “I don’t know if it’s necessary yet. Let’s let the lawyers look at the full ramifications of the recent Supreme Court hearing. What I do support is a notion that marriage is between a man and a woman.”," is the day I call him full of shit too. That’s just a specious argument. This isn’t about what Bill or Hillary Clinton said; it’s about what our current president said. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/88 "2003-07-04T01:49:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fred \* > \*\*As a point of order, **Toaster’s** “skin crawl” reaction didn’t come from thinking gay **sex,** but rather from thinking about gay **marriage.** \*\* Spin. Let **Toaster** give us the skinny. **Toaster** , think about this … me … Brad Pitt … three gallons of canola oil … and four hours of hot monkey sex … what’s that do for ya? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/89 "2003-07-04T01:52:10Z")
Oh. Well, that’s different. Really, who cares if gays get married? I HONESTLY cannot understand why so many people obsess over this! (I’m NOT talking about people fighting for it, but the people fighting against it. It’s stupid) ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/90 "2003-07-04T02:23:08Z")
I’m with ya **Guin,** it really is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/91 "2003-07-04T02:24:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fred \* > \*\*I agree with **Obvious Guy** in a backhanded way, in that I think there is (or at least should be) a distinction between homophobia, the literal “fear” of homosexuals characterized by the heebeejeebees (spelling?) which **Toaster52** talked about (“but my skin just crawls when I think [about gay marriage]”), and bigotry, that is regular old prejudice against gays. One doesn’t necessarily mean the other. > > I fail to see how you’ve demonstrated either in this case, **Dio**. \*\* The term “homophobia” does not necessarily connote literal fear (if you want to be really literal about the Greek roots it means “fear of the same”) but a general dislike or hostility for gay people. It’s not a great word, and I think there must be better ones (“heterosexist” is one that is currently gaining some popularity). A desire to deny a group of people the same rights that everyone else has simple based on personal or religious prejudice is bigotry. It’s the definition of bigotry. Imagine someone saying, “I’m not a racist but the idea of interracial marriage makes my skin crawl.” I see no difference between that sentiment and the one expressed by **Toaster** (although to his credit, it doesn’t sound like a feeling he’s proud of and he seems to recognize intellectually that it’s irrational and unfair). GWB saying that marriage is “between a man and a woman” is really no different than saying it’s “between a white man and a white woman.” It’s the same kind of irrational, hurtful prejudice IMNSHO. ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/92 "2003-07-04T02:38:24Z")
But you see how someone can be homophobic yet not bigoted, right? Although the inverse is probably less likely. I’m with you that it’s really not a good word, and I was a little uneasy about its exact definition (to my credit, I put fear in quotation marks :)) Racism is, of course, less complicated in that there isn’t the two word dichotomy (That is a word, right?). Please forgive me if I’m playing semantic games - it **is** a weakness of mine. I personally can’t imagine my skin crawling at the thought of any sort of marriage; as I told Guin, I think that’s silly. However, what does make my skin crawl isn’t, strictly speaking, up to me. It certainly isn’t a concious decision. If it was, I’d be eating a lot more tuna sandwhiches (tuna making skin crawl is also pretty silly). Since I agree that Bush’s statement is irrational, and I’m sure it’s hurtful to some, the only thing we’re really quibbling over is the prejudice part, and we’re not really even quibbling over that. Is homophobia as a subconcious reaction prejudice? Certainly. Is it the same as bigotry? Hrm. If marriage didn’t have thousands of other rights tied up in it, that would be a simpler question. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/93 "2003-07-04T02:46:52Z")
Well, I’ve said (probably too many times already) that I favor full-fledged marriage for gay couples, and that means that I think that both George W. and Hilary are full of _huevos revueltos_. But in the interest of fairness, it’s instructive to compare their comments. In close paraphrase: **Pres. Bush** : We don’t need a constitutional amendment yet because nobody is authorizing gays to get married. When some state does will be the time to adopt the amendment prohibiting it. **Sen. Clinton** : I’m opposed to gay marriage because I believe marriage is something between a man and a woman. But I support some kind of civil union for gays with some of the benefits of marriage. Neither is particularly supportive. But the tone in which they’re expressed is as different as night and day: “I’m opposed to it, so let’s outlaw it” vs. “I don’t like it, but can’t we find a compromise?” **Toaster** : I’m probably inviting you to a flamefest – but would you consider discussing why you have that visceral reaction? I think all but a few people here are willing to listen to reasoned argument even if we disagree with the premises it’s based on. **Obvious Guy** : You wanna define “gay lifestyle”? and then we can talk. (Not a rhetorical question – last ten people I’ve asked what they meant by it refused to come up with an answer.) I think you’ll probably get disagreed with, but at least we can get a grasp on what it is that you’re objecting to. And you know, if you mean what a few people seem to mean by it, I think you might find people here, including a couple of the gay posters, who might even agree with you. But right at the moment, it’s one of those catchphrases, like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh sling around, that have no objective referent, just whatever people choose to mean by them at the moment. And nobody here is Humpty Dumpty; we like our words to have mutually agreed meanings! **Priam** : If you ever visit Raleigh, I’ll be sure to take you down to the nicest of the local clubs, Legends. It’s a fairly loud, high-energy place, but friendly. I’ve been there a few times to see what it was like, and enjoyed it. (I’ll also make it a point to point out to you Matt Shepherd’s stool – the one he sat on when he had a few drinks with a writer for our local weekly, a couple of weeks before moving back to Wyoming. It’s etched in my memory, because I was sitting on it the week before the writer did a eulogy for Matt. If you’ve ever had a “There but for the grace of God go I” experience, you’ll know just how I feel!) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/94 "2003-07-04T02:49:04Z")
We’re getting into nuances of words but I think I can concede that someone can be inwardly prejudiced without being outwardly bigoted. Maybe “bigotry” should imply an active _expressed_ hostility rather than a private feeling. I would not have pitted Bush if he had said that he personally opposed gay marriage but that they should still have a legal right to do it (IOW something akin to the standard, centrist politico stance on abortion). I might still think he was an ass but I would give him credit for following reason rather than personal prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/95 "2003-07-04T02:50:18Z")
My last post was addressed to **Fred**. I got simulposted. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/96 "2003-07-04T06:15:15Z")
**Obvious Guy** , when I use the term homophobe, I’m being generous. I assume that the person who acts prejudiced against homosexuals is simply expressing a deep, unreasoning fear. The alternative, that they have considered their position, and decided to be bigoted towards gay people based on some sort of twisted evil version of logic which lets them feel superior is just appalling to me. If you prefer, I’ll use the term ‘straight supremacist’ for those who object to the more courteous word ‘homophobe’; it seems to sum their position up nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/97 "2003-07-04T06:58:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Toaster52 \* > \*\*This issue is the hardest that I have ever struggled with. I have to admit that my reaction is purely visceral; I have a firm and unshakeable conviction to equal rights for anybody and everybody. Yet somehow, when it comes to this issue, I want to equivocate. I _want_ to say that homosexuals can marry, but my skin just crawls when I think that. Sorry, but that’s the way it is. \*\* Well, then you need to realise that that reaction is an irrational reaction that shouldn’t have any bearing on your expressed opinions. Be a truly fine human being and be in favour of gay marriage despite that crawly feeling. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/98 "2003-07-04T08:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrVisible \* > \*\*If you prefer, I’ll use the term ‘straight supremacist’ for those who object to the more courteous word ‘homophobe’; it seems to sum their position up nicely. \*\* I realize that the term “straight supremacist” has been around for a respectable amount of time (at least six months, to my personal knowledge), and that, consequently, I’m a bit late out of the gate as far as suggesting an alternative. Still, I think “heterochauvinist” has a nice ring to it, and perhaps doesn’t carry the same baggage, not having the dreaded “supremacist” dangling off of it. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/99 "2003-07-04T18:18:50Z")
Personally, I like the ‘supremacist’ dangling off it. I think people should have the courage of their convictions. If they’re going to insist on trying to keep an entire minority in second-class citizen status forever, then they have earned the right to wear pointy-headed sheets and burn crosses. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881/100 "2003-07-05T06:31:10Z")
Point taken, **MrVisible**. But reasonable people can view the direct analogy to the KKK as overstated. That could make people who use inflammatory terms in their labels appear, shrill and, well, unreasonable. Still, I’m only a supporter. I don’t walk in your particular shoes, and I would not presume to dictate how your rhetoric should be couched. Also, I _was_ really late with the suggestion. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shrub-marriage-is-between-a-man-and-a-woman/185881.md?page=6)