# Shut the fuck up George! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281 "2008-12-02T02:01:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/21 "2008-12-02T04:17:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It almost certainly would have been prevented had Bill Clinton, Richard Clarke, et. al killed Bin Laden when they had the opportunity to do so. I seem to remember Bill Clinton catching a ration of shit from conservatives the times he did take action against Bin Laden? Remember the outrage and accusations over “wagging the dog” after the cruise missile attacks on the aspirin factory or whatever? It’s a little weird to hear them now giving him a ration of shit for not doing more of what they were giving him a ration of shit for doing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/22 "2008-12-02T04:20:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And people wonder why I say cites prove nothing. :rolleyes: I hardly think [NewBusters](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=NewsBusters) counts as a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/23 "2008-12-02T04:26:37Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > It’s a little weird to hear them now giving him a ration of shit for not doing more of what they were giving him a ration of shit for doing. Not really weird. We’ve just seen that **Starving Artist** would rather believe Sudanese warlords over the dirty unwashed hippie 9/11 commission: > [@](#): > > These contacts with Sudan, which went on for years, have become a source of controversy. Former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to the United States. Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer. We have not found any reliable evidence to support the Sudanese claim. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/24 "2008-12-02T04:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Five years after he declared victory in Iraq on the US aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, President George W. Bush says he was “unprepared” for a war in Iraq that has gone on to claim thousands of American lives and tens of thousands of Iraqis. > > “I wish the intelligence had been different, I guess,” Bush tells ABC’s Charlie Gibson in an interview to be broadcast tonight, and said he didn’t know if he’d have gone to war if he didn’t think there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. > > “That is a do-over that I can’t do,” Bush said. I do not expect George Bush to pay any actual price for the colossal errors of his administration. He’ll get the library, he’ll get the book deal, he’ll get the astronomical speaking fees. The most I could hope for is that he suffers some awareness and regret for the damage he has caused. > [@](#): > > “A lot of people put their reputations on the line and said the weapons of mass destruction is a reason to remove Saddam Hussein,” Bush said. “It wasn’t just people in my administration. A lot of members in Congress, prior to my arrival in Washington, D.C., during the debate on Iraq, a lot of leaders of nations around the world were all looking at the same intelligence.” Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/25 "2008-12-02T04:37:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Why should we? > > Bush and his supporters, including people like you, have been constantly yammering over the past 7 years that “9/11 changed everything.” Why, then, should we hold Clinton to the same level of responsibility regarding Bin Laden as we do Bush? Perhaps because of U.S. deaths bin Laden was already responsible for and the fact that 9/11 may well not have happened at all had Clinton had the cojones to do the right thing and off him when he had the chance. I don’t have a cite handy but I do recall reading that he and his advisors decided not to kill (“assassinate”) bin Laden because it wouldn’t play well with the public and the fallout might be deleterious to his wife’s nascent health care scheme. > [@mhendo](#): > > If 9/11 was indeed the massive watershed moment that Bush and his supporters have repeatedly claimed, then surely the effort to find and kill Bin Laden in the period _after_ 9/11 should be weighed as more important than the period _before_. Correct. It was and is more important under Bush’s administration post 9/11. That does not mean it was of no importance under Clinton’s. > [@mhendo](#): > > From that link:Yet according to Staff Statement No. 5, part of the 9/11 Commission Report:[Link](http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_5.pdf) (pdf) Well, we all know Bill Clinton (“I did not have sexyul relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinski…Well, it depends on what the meaning of is, is”) and his lackeys are as good as their word, don’t well? > [@Giraffe](#): > > I seem to remember Bill Clinton catching a ration of shit from conservatives the times he did take action against Bin Laden? Remember the outrage and accusations over “wagging the dog” after the cruise missile attacks on the aspirin factory or whatever? > > It’s a little weird to hear them now giving him a ration of shit for not doing more of what they were giving him a ration of shit for doing. The difference between George Bush and Bill Clinton is that Bush does what he thinks is right and what his responsibilities demand, rather than Clinton’s approach which is to do whatever is polically expedient. And Bush has come in for plenty of criticism from both sides. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I hardly think NewBusters counts as a cite. I figured as much. That’s why I also included links to the article about the _CBS_ program and to article from _The Los Angeles Times_. But all that aside, do you believe the CBS program didn’t take place? Do you believe the interview with Charlie Gibson didn’t didn’t take place? Is it all a fake? If not, what difference does it make who reports it? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/26 "2008-12-02T04:37:34Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It almost certainly would have been prevented had Bill Clinton, Richard Clarke, et. al killed Bin Laden when they had the opportunity to do so. > > This from terrorist analyst Michael Scheuer on CBS’ _Early Show_: > > _“The former president seems to be able to deny facts with impugnity. Bin Laden is alive today because Mr. Clinton, Mr. Sandy Berger, and Mr. Richard Clarke refused to kill him,” he said._ > > [Link](http://newsbusters.org/node/7871) > > Remember when Bill Clinton and his team had Bin Laden practically served up on a platter by the Sudanese government but declined? > > [Link](http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/Clinton_let_bin_laden.htm) (From the horse’s mouth. This guy actively participated in the negotiations and was repeatedly rebuffed by the Clinton administration.) > > [Link](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article562390.ece) > > [Link](http://www.sudan.net/news/press/postedr/58.shtml) > > Have you blamed Clinton in the same way you’re now blaming Bush? Frankly, yeah, but y’know, 1999 was before 9/11. Plus, Tora Bora. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/27 "2008-12-02T04:38:58Z")
I keep hearing rumblings about The Hague. Could we dare hope that wheels will be set in motion on January 21, 2009? ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/28 "2008-12-02T04:40:30Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Frankly, yeah, but y’know, 1999 was before 9/11. > > Plus, Tora Bora. Plus, Bill Clinton got a blow job! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/29 "2008-12-02T04:43:33Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > I keep hearing rumblings about The Hague. Could we dare hope that wheels will be set in motion on January 21, 2009? Those rumblings are just your meds wearing off, dear. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/30 "2008-12-02T04:51:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Perhaps because of U.S. deaths bin Laden was already responsible for and the fact that 9/11 may well not have happened at all had Clinton had the cojones to do the right thing and off him when he had the chance. I don’t have a cite handy but I do recall reading that he and his advisors decided not to kill (“assassinate”) bin Laden because it wouldn’t play well with the public and the fallout might be deleterious to his wife’s nascent health care scheme. Huh? The Sudanese thing you’re talking about, according to your own link, happened between 1996 and 1998. Hillary’s “nascent health care scheme” was dead in the water years before that, as the Clinton administration tried to deal with a hostile Republican congress. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Correct. It was and is more important under Bush’s administration post 9/11. That does not mean it was of no importance under Clinton’s. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, it was you who suggested they should be treated the same. Just over an hour ago, you asked: > [@](#): > > Have you blamed Clinton in the **same way** you’re now blaming Bush? Bolding mine. I sometimes wonder whether you realize that we can actually go back and look at your previous posts. I can think of no other explanation for the way in which you constantly act as if your contradictions and inconsistencies were invisible to everyone. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, we all know Bill Clinton (“I did not have sexyul relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinski…Well, it depends on what the meaning of is, is”) and his lackeys are as good as their word, don’t well? Completely irrelevant. If the 9/11 Commission Report based its conclusions only on testimony from Clinton and his “lackeys,” you might have a point. But the Commission got information from many sources, and chased up many different leads and trails. And now i find i’m dealing with **Starving Artist** as if he were actually a member of the reality-based community. I vowed recently that i was not going to dignify his dishonesty and duplicity with serious responses, and i think i should now proceed to honor that vow. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/31 "2008-12-02T04:52:11Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Plus, Bill Clinton got a blow job! He also trashed the reputations of quite a few women who were only telling the truth. Of course he got a pass from NOW and your ilk because he was on your team. I have no doubt that if GWB’s name was Bill Clinton, and all else was the same, he’d be getting a pass on the war, too…from you, the press, Hollywood, etc., just like he is getting a pass now about not getting bin Laden, lying under oath, and using the power of his position to manipulate/accost young women sexually and then trash them publically once exposed. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/32 "2008-12-02T04:52:49Z")
Starving Artist, you’re pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/33 "2008-12-02T04:56:12Z")
I do not blame Bush for 9/11 even if it could be found that things could have been done better to prevent it. Sometimes shit happens and it could have happened under any president. What HE did after 9/11 is his responsibility and he has proven to be utterly incompetent and evil. But all the blame is not his. I am not sure even most of the blame is his. The Congress went along with the folly. The press and other media cheered along and abdicated their most basic responsibility. The American people re-elected him and so endorsed the crimes and the evil. Other Western countries mostly looked the other way while the knew America was committing huge crimes. Some, quite a few, participated and helped with the rendition flights and with secret prisons. There is plenty of blame to go around. We are all guilty to one degree or another, if only for not having spoken up against all this loudly enough. But we will put all the blame on Bush just like we put it on Hitler after WWII. The truth is the American people reject Bush’s legacy because it was a failure in every respect, not because it was criminal. Had the war in Iraq gone well and the economy too the American people would be cheering for Bush and McCain would be in the White House today and they could not care less about the crimes committed in their name in Guantanamo, Iraq or anywhere else. Sad but true. Just like Europpeans look the other way just because it is in their interest. Shameful. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/34 "2008-12-02T04:59:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Of course he got a pass from NOW and your ilk because he was on your team. No he doesn’t. I’m just making fun of you because it was so predictable that a right wing loonball would bring it up. I’ve said before that I can’t stand Bill Clinton, never could, even before the Lewinsky thing. My scorn for him doesn’t negate my even deeper scorn for the right wing loonballs who spent millions of dollars and wasted so much time trying to find something, ANYTHING, to hang on him. When it came down to a blowjob, they went wild, titillated beyond their wildest dreams. The fucker shouldn’t have lied, and I hate him for that, but it really was nobody’s business besides him, Hillary and Lewinsky in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/35 "2008-12-02T05:02:58Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The difference between George Bush and Bill Clinton is that Bush does what he thinks is right and what his responsibilities demand, rather than Clinton’s approach which is to do whatever is polically expedient. I was never a big fan of Bill Clinton’s while he was president, but in hindsight he really did a good job. Now that I’ve seen how badly an incompetent president can muck things up, I’ll take someone I personally don’t love who is competent over a sincere doofus any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/36 "2008-12-02T05:04:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I don’t have a cite handy but I do recall reading that he and his advisors decided not to kill (“assassinate”) bin Laden because it wouldn’t play well with the public and the fallout might be deleterious to his wife’s nascent health care scheme. You’re mixing up the timeline. Hillary’s healthcare fiasco was in the early '90s. Bin Laden wasn’t even on the threat radar until the African embassy bombings in 1998. Clinton approved the cruise missile strike on Sudan and what were believed to be Bin Laden’s training camp in Afghanistan. It’s not like he did nothing. But after Somalia in 1993, neither the Democrats or Republicans in Congress would have supported any sort of large scale military response in '98-2000 that would have been required to find and eliminate Bin Laden. Besides, if you’re going to do the time warp, why not blame Reagan/Bush I for even creating and then abandoning the country and environment that allowed Bin Laden to thrive? Would 9/11 have happened in a Gore administration or constitutionally-magic third Clinton term? No one will ever know. All we do know is that it happened on W’s watch. > [@](#): > > The difference between George Bush and Bill Clinton is that Bush does what he thinks is right and what his responsibilities demand, rather than Clinton’s approach which is to do whatever is polically expedient. Clinton will probably never be truly admired for having a large degree of political courage, but dumb and decisive is NOT better than smart and cautious. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/37 "2008-12-02T05:04:13Z")
He’s playing the ‘history will vindicate me’ card. -has the ‘card’ thing jumped the shark yet? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/38 "2008-12-02T05:08:51Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I was never a big fan of Bill Clinton’s while he was president, but in hindsight he really did a good job. Now that I’ve seen how badly an incompetent president can muck things up, I’ll take someone I personally don’t love who is competent over a sincere doofus any day of the week. I have been joking for a long time now that “I used to like disliking Clinton much better than I now like disliking Bush”. Compared to Bush Clinton was 2^76 times better. ---
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/39 "2008-12-02T05:10:48Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Sorry, I thought “'Please vote for me” kind of implied “I’ll be able to handle an attack.” Exactly what position did he think he was running for? The way he’s performed over the last 8 years it was probably the missionary position (for him) and doggy style for everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/40 "2008-12-02T05:16:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Huh? > > The Sudanese thing you’re talking about, according to your own link, happened between 1996 and 1998. Hillary’s “nascent health care scheme” was dead in the water years before that, as the Clinton administration tried to deal with a hostile Republican congress. Clinton was presented with numerous opportunities to kill bin Laden or have him apprehended. As I said, I’m going by memory and don’t have a cite, but I believe the incident involving Hillarycare predated the Sudanese offer. > [@mhendo](#): > > Huh?I never suggested otherwise. In fact, it was you who suggested they should be treated the same. Just over an hour ago, you asked:Bolding mine. I suggested no such thing. I asked **Equipoise** , in the wake of her condemnation of Bush for not listening to Richard Clarke, if she held Bill Clinton to the same standard since he was also listening to Richard Clarke. That is far different than a general comment saying that the two should be treated the same. > [@mhendo](#): > > I sometimes wonder whether you realize that we can actually go back and look at your previous posts. I can think of no other explanation for the way in which you constantly act as if your contradictions and inconsistencies were invisible to everyone. I can tell you why that is. I tend to speak in generalities covering a wide range of topics and instances, whereas you try to limit/parse my comments so as to make them inconsistent with the point you then claim I’m trying to make. The Sudan/Hillarycare issue above is an example. > [@mhendo](#): > > Completely irrelevant. Not to moi. > [@mhendo](#): > > If the 9/11 Commission Report based its conclusions only on testimony from Clinton and his “lackeys,” you might have a point. Your post quoted “Clinton administration officials”, and that was what I responded to. > [@mhendo](#): > > And now i find i’m dealing with **Starving Artist** as if he were actually a member of the reality-based community. I vowed recently that i was not going to dignify his dishonesty and duplicity with serious responses, and i think i should now proceed to honor that vow. Yeah, you and **Rubystreak** both. I’m looking forward to the time when you keep your word. > [@Camus](#): > > You’re mixing up the timeline. Hillary’s healthcare fiasco was in the early '90s. Bin Laden wasn’t even on the threat radar until the African embassy bombings in 1998. Clinton approved the cruise missile strike on Sudan and what were believed to be Bin Laden’s training camp in Afghanistan. It’s not like he did nothing. But after Somalia in 1993, neither the Democrats or Republicans in Congress would have supported any sort of large scale military response in '98-2000 that would have been required to find and eliminate Bin Laden. As I said to **mhendo** above, the article I recall reading, which described Clinton administration concerns over repercussions on Hillarycare, predated the Sudanese offer. If I had known this would become a point of contention I would have taken more care to separate the two. My apologies to you and **mhendo** (believe it or not), as it does seem that I’m responsible for the confusion. Since I don’t have a cite handy I will not press the issue of the Clinton’s behavior re bin Laden/Hillarycare at this time. I have an early day tomorrow and have to bow out now anyway, but perhaps I can do a little research and come up with something more concrete tomorrow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281.md?page=3)