# Shut the fuck up George! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281 "2008-12-02T02:01:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/41 "2008-12-02T05:18:00Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > But all the blame is not his. I am not sure even most of the blame is his. The Congress went along with the folly. The press and other media cheered along and abdicated their most basic responsibility. The American people re-elected him and so endorsed the crimes and the evil. Other Western countries mostly looked the other way while the knew America was committing huge crimes. Some, quite a few, participated and helped with the rendition flights and with secret prisons. There is plenty of blame to go around. We are all guilty to one degree or another, if only for not having spoken up against all this loudly enough. [I _knew_ it!](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30464) ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/42 "2008-12-02T05:43:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Your post quoted “Clinton administration officials”, and that was what I responded to. My post quoted no such people. My post quoted the 9/11 Commission Report. The 9/11 Commission was a bipartisan Commission set up by President Bush and Congress. And the 9/11 Commission report section that i quoted did not quote “Clinton administration officials” either. It merely said that those officials had denied the Sudanese government’s claims. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As I said to **mhendo** above, the article I recall reading, which described Clinton administration concerns over repercussions on Hillarycare, predated the Sudanese offer. If I had known this would become a point of contention I would have taken more care to separate the two. You mean, “If i had known that you would spot my duplicity and my (all-too-familiar) habit of making baldfaced assertions with no evidence, and using the words ‘I don’t have a cite handy’ as an excuse when people point out my dishonesty.” I think you should ask the mods to change your username to “No Cite Handy.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/43 "2008-12-02T05:45:01Z")
It kind of reads like an apology, which makes it a million times better than anything I actually expected him to say. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/44 "2008-12-02T05:56:37Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > My post quoted no such people. Can you say “splitting hairs”? Yeah. I thought that you could. You know fully well that the quote you posted (in post #20) contained the following line: “Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer…” One of your most striking features is your intellectual honesty. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/45 "2008-12-02T05:58:23Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > He’s playing the ‘history will vindicate me’ card. > > -has the ‘card’ thing jumped the shark yet? It will outlast “-gate.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/46 "2008-12-02T05:59:09Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You mean, “If i had known that you would spot my duplicity and my (all-too-familiar) habit of making baldfaced assertions with no evidence, and using the words ‘I don’t have a cite handy’ as an excuse when people point out my dishonesty.” I would also point out that I stated up front and voluntarily, before anyone ‘pointed out’ anything, that I was going by recollection only and had no cite. And you accuse _me_ of dishonesty? Hah! ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/47 "2008-12-02T06:08:58Z")
One sentence struck me in the interview. He mentioned that “every day has been pretty joyous”, unless I misheard. Conducting two wars and being happy most of the time while people are dying? If that’s what he said, he’s a seriously sick person. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/48 "2008-12-02T06:17:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I would also point out that I stated up front and voluntarily, before anyone ‘pointed out’ anything, that I was going by recollection only and had no cite. > > And you accuse _me_ of dishonesty? Hah! **Starving Artist** , you’re such a fucking tool. WE AREN’T TALKING ABOUT CLINTON. We’re talking about BUSH. Dumbass. Republican foreign policy has been a complete disaster, to the point that everyone else in the fucking world hates us, and you’re still going on about Clinton’s blowjob. Why are you so obsessed with Bill Clinton’s dick, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/49 "2008-12-02T06:22:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I would also point out that I stated up front and voluntarily, before anyone ‘pointed out’ anything, that I was going by recollection only and had no cite. > > And you accuse _me_ of dishonesty? Hah! But claiming that you have no cite, as you do with monotonous regularity, is simply your standard way of giving a pre-emptive excuse for whatever bullshit you decide to come up with. The very fact that you are now saying that your voluntary admission excuses you is evidence that you don’t know what honesty even means, let alone how to exercise it. I actually think that you intentionally use “no cite” when you know that you’re spouting bullshit, just so that you then have an easy way to weasel out of all your factually incorrect statements or your egregiously poor analysis. You can pretend that your upfront appeal to recollection is evidence of your honesty, but its surface candor is actually just a cover for the deeper, almost pathological dishonesty that is apparently intrinsic to your nature, part of the very core of who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/50 "2008-12-02T06:41:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I would also point out that I stated up front and voluntarily, before anyone ‘pointed out’ anything, that I was going by recollection only and had no cite. Well, yeah, but, see, your brain doesn’t work right, so your recollection ain’t worth the used tissue in the neighboring toilet stall. > [@](#): > > _And you accuse me of dishonesty? Hah!_ No, of being a dipshit. Rather a significant distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/51 "2008-12-02T06:52:24Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Why are you so obsessed with Bill Clinton’s dick, anyway? Jealousy? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/52 "2008-12-02T06:55:00Z")
One last bit of snark and then I really must be off to bed… > [@Kyla](#): > > **Starving Artist** , you’re such a fucking tool. WE AREN’T TALKING ABOUT CLINTON. We’re talking about BUSH. Dumbass. > > Republican foreign policy has been a complete disaster, to the point that everyone else in the fucking world hates us, and you’re still going on about Clinton’s blowjob. Why are you so obsessed with Bill Clinton’s dick, anyway? Have you even been reading this thread, dumbass? The OP brought up Clinton’s blow job (and …ahem… by extension, his dick). I merely responded to it. If you want to gripe at someone for bringing up Clinton’s blowjob/dick, take it up with her. Further, I know fully well the thread is about Bush. I merely asked the OP, in response to her assailment of Bush for not listening to Richard Clarke and her statement that 9/11 might have been avoided if he had, why she didn’t hold Cliinton more responsible since Clarke was a member of his team, and further he had numerous opportunities to kill/have arrested bin Laden and passed on every one. In other words, if Clarke had such damning info, why isn’t it Clinton who is damned for not acting on it rather than Bush? And now in closing, I do thank you for completely misunderstanding/misreading the activity that has occurred in this thread and for giving me the opportunity to state my case once again. > [@mhendo](#): > > But claiming that you have no cite, as you do with monotonous regularity, is simply your standard way of giving a pre-emptive excuse for whatever bullshit you decide to come up with. If it’s so standard, how did you miss it? It was you, after all, who claimed I merely stated it “as an excuse when people point out my dishonesty”. So which is it? Something I do all the time and which even someone as doltish as you has been readily able to pick up on and view as my ‘standard’ operating procedure – in which case you would hardly have mentioned it as being my defense for having my ‘dishonesty’ ‘pointed out’ – or was it as you originally stated, an excuse after the fact for having my alleged dishonesty exposed? You can’t have it both ways, buttpipe. Further, I’d bet you couldn’t find ten instances in the last year (and I think you’d agree that I’m a somewhat prolific poster) where I voluntarily and pre-emptively state that I don’t have a cite for something I’m about to say. Most of what I have to say about cites is to decline demands for them in lieu of the fact that they accomplish nothing – as the cites I provided in this thread so ably prove. > [@Cervaise](#): > > Well, yeah, but, see, your brain doesn’t work right, so your recollection ain’t worth the used tissue in the neighboring toilet stall. > > No, of being a dipshit. Rather a significant distinction. Hmm…you say my brain doesn’t ‘work right’ [sic], yet you attribute to **mhendo** an insult toward me that he did not make, and you deny the one that he clearly did make. Thus, I hope you’ll understand if I take your assessment of my brain’s workings (and, by extension, your own) with more than a grain of salt. And now, nightie-night all. Goodnight, darling **Zoe**. Goodnight, **Hector** , wherever you are. Goodnight, Johnboy. Goodnight, Bambi…Goodnight, Brooke (but snuggle up a little closer, okay? I’m payin’ big money for this). ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/53 "2008-12-02T06:56:41Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Jealousy? You gotta be kiddin’ me. I know at least a couple places it’s been (and at least one for decades), and I wouldn’t go there even with his dick. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/54 "2008-12-02T07:22:56Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Have you even been reading this thread, dumbass? The OP brought up Clinton’s blow job (and …ahem… by extension, his dick). I merely responded to it. If you want to gripe at someone for bringing up Clinton’s blowjob/dick, take it up with her. Tell me where I did that. Be specific (post quote, post number). You first brought it up in post #25. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Further, I know fully well the thread is about Bush. I merely asked the OP, in response to her assailment of Bush for not listening to Richard Clarke and her statement that 9/11 might have been avoided if he had, why she didn’t hold Cliinton more responsible since Clarke was a member of his team, and further he had numerous opportunities to kill/have arrested bin Laden and passed on every one. In other words, if Clarke had such damning info, why isn’t it Clinton who is dam The military strikes turned out to be a mistake, but Clinton took bin Laden very seriously and at least tried to do _something_ but as Giraffe pointed out, Clinton was accused of wagging the dog to deflect attention from the Lewinsky affair. [Cohen criticizes ‘wag the dog’ characterization](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/wag.dog/) (CNN link) Former defense secretary testifies before 9/11 panel > [@](#): > > Tuesday, March 23, 2004 WASHINGTON (CNN) – Former Defense Secretary William Cohen on Tuesday defended President Clinton’s use of the military to protect national security interests, returning to a sharp GOP-led criticism of Clinton at a time when he was embroiled in the Monica Lewinsky scandal. > > At that time, some GOP lawmakers used the phrase “wag the dog” to describe Clinton’s military actions, saying he was using conflicts abroad to deflect attention from the domestic scandal. A movie of the same name came out in 1997, and the plot involves a presidential administration that launches a war as a political ploy. > > Testifying before the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States, Cohen said the U.S. military was prepared to kill or capture al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden whenever there was “actionable intelligence.” > > But he also said trying to capture bin Laden and his associates was like “mercury on a mirror.” > > Clinton came under intense criticism in 1998 by the GOP after he launched an attack on suspected terrorist targets in Afghanistan and Sudan. Intelligence indicated bin Laden and his top associates were meeting at a training camp when U.S. missiles were fired at it, just weeks after al Qaeda terrorists bombed U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya. > > The attack was launched on the same day Lewinsky, a former White House intern, wrapped up her testimony before a grand jury investigating whether Clinton lied under oath about their relationship or encouraged anyone else to do so. > > "During that time when the attack was launched in Afghanistan and Sudan, there was a movie out called ‘Wag the Dog,’ " Cohen testified Tuesday. In the movie, an administration launched a fake war as a political ploy. "There were critics of the Clinton administration that attacked the president, saying this was an effort on his part to divert attention from his personal difficulties. > > “I would like to say for the record under no circumstances did President Clinton ever call upon the military and use that military in order to serve a political purpose.” > > Cohen served as a Republican U.S. senator from Maine before Clinton appointed him to the defense post. > > Cohen said the the military objective on August 20, 1998, was “to kill as many people in those camps as we could” and to “take out” a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan that was believed to have been used by terrorists. > > “We went after as many as we could and as high as we could. We didn’t know whether [bin Laden] would be there for sure. We hoped he would be there. He slipped away apparently.” > > … So, what exactly did Bush do regarding bin Laden prior to 9/11? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And now in closing, I do thank you for completely misunderstanding/misreading the activity that has occurred in this thread and for giving me the opportunity to state my case once again. Weebles wobble but they don’t fall down. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/55 "2008-12-02T07:27:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You gotta be kiddin’ me. I know at least a **couple places** it’s been (and at least one for decades), and I wouldn’t go there even with his dick. Hmmm, if Hillary is one of those places, then who owns the other? You were the one who said > [@](#): > > He also trashed the reputations of quite a few women who were only telling the truth. > > …and using the power of his position to manipulate/accost young women sexually You’re trashing the reputation of at least one of those women. Hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/56 "2008-12-02T07:29:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > One last bit of snark and then I really must be off to bed… > > Have you even been reading this thread, dumbass? The OP brought up Clinton’s blow job (and …ahem… by extension, his dick). I merely responded to it. If you want to gripe at someone for bringing up Clinton’s blowjob/dick, take it up with her. The OP never mentioned Clinton. Using the good ol’ “Find” feature on the first page, it appears you were the first person to even mention Clinton. > [@](#): > > Further, I know fully well the thread is about Bush. I merely asked the OP, in response to her assailment of Bush for not listening to Richard Clarke and her statement that 9/11 might have been avoided if he had, why she didn’t hold Cliinton more responsible since Clarke was a member of his team, and further he had numerous opportunities to kill/have arrested bin Laden and passed on every one. In other words, if Clarke had such damning info, why isn’t it Clinton who is damned for not acting on it rather than Bush? Clarke’s job was counter-terrorism, which by definition is preparing for and trying to prevent (primarily) domestic terrorist attacks, not search and destroy missions in foreign lands. What people have been blaming Bush for is ignoring or seemingly ignoring the warnings that Bin Ladin was “determined to strike in the U.S.” What people have been blaming Bush for is neglecting to make Bin Laden’s death or capture a real priority post-2001. Clinton had plenty of fuck-ups in his day, but they pale in comparison to the domestic policy and foreign policy fuck-ups of W., including letting one of the key masterminds of the deaths of approx. 3000 Americans remain free. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/57 "2008-12-02T07:39:19Z")
One other thing about Clarke. He was the only one in the Bush (or Clinton) administration who had the decency to apologise for the failure to get bin Laden prior to 9/11. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_A._Clarke): > [@](#): > > On March 24, 2004, Clarke testified at the public 9/11 Commission hearings.[5] At the outset of his testimony Clarke offered an apology to the families of 9/11 victims and an acknowledgment that the government had failed: “I also welcome the hearings because it is finally a forum where I can apologize to the loved ones of the victims of 9/11…”, “To the loved ones of the victims of 9/11, to them who are here in this room, to those who are watching on television, your government failed you. Those entrusted with protecting you failed you. And I failed you. We tried hard, but that doesn’t matter because we failed. And for that failure, I would ask, once all the facts are out, for your understanding and for your forgiveness.”[4] Clarke was the only member of the Clinton or Bush Administrations who provided an apology to the family members of victims along with an acknowledgement of the government’s failure.[5] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/58 "2008-12-02T08:17:22Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > So, what exactly did Bush do regarding bin Laden prior to 9/11? He told the people in charge of doing so to stop trying to catch Bin Laden. Despite the outgoing Clinton Administration’s warnings. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/59 "2008-12-02T09:15:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Further, I know fully well the thread is about Bush. I merely asked the OP, in response to her assailment of Bush for not listening to Richard Clarke and her statement that 9/11 might have been avoided if he had, why she didn’t hold Cliinton more responsible since Clarke was a member of his team, and further he had numerous opportunities to kill/have arrested bin Laden and passed on every one. In other words, if Clarke had such damning info, why isn’t it Clinton who is damned for not acting on it rather than Bush? Are you kidding? I somehow doubt you were “merely ask[ing]” the OP anything. On the contrary, you saw a thread that was a perfectly justified bashing of GWB for being completely and thoroughly unprepared for war, and those pathetic oh-shit-I-have-to-defend-Bush alarms went off in your head and you decided to rehash this debate about what Clinton may or may not have done about Bin Laden. Dude - this meme is dead everywhere outside of the right-wing echo chamber. There is no credible evidence that Clinton ignored an offer from the Sudanese. I suggest you reread **mhendo** ’s link here: [http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff\_statements/staff\_statement\_5.pdf](http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_5.pdf). I’m not the OP, but the answer to your question is beyond obvious: no, one shouldn’t hold Clinton more responsible, because your premise is bullshit. He didn’t pass on any opportunities to kill/arrest bin Laden. If you have evidence corroborating Ijaz’s story that the 9-11 commission somehow missed, feel free to present it here. I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/60 "2008-12-02T11:36:55Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Tell me where I did that. Be specific (post quote, post number). You first brought it up in post #25. Well, you may not have done it first in THIS thread, but that doesn’t negate your responsibility. You laid the groundwork by posting the OP, so the blame is ultimately yours. Everything changed after post #25. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281.md?page=4)