# Shut the fuck up George! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281 "2008-12-02T02:01:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/61 "2008-12-02T13:40:32Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Tell me where I did that. Be specific (post quote, post number). You first brought it up in post #25. I spoke of Clinton’s lies in post #25 and there was no mention of his world-famous blowjob. I could just as easily have been talking about his using Lewinski as a humidor, dropping his pants in front of women procured by his state troopers, or his denial of tapes in which he calls Jennifer Flowers ‘baby’ but calls her a fucking slut and later a whore when tapes of him advising her to lie about their relationship surfaced. The words ‘blow job’ first entered the thread when you said them in post #28. And I’d lay dollars to doughnuts that it was either your specific first use of the term or my response to your first use of it that spurred **Kyla’s** assertion that I’m allegedly ‘obsessed’ with Clinton’s blowjob. > [@Do Not Taunt](#): > > Are you kidding? I somehow doubt you were “merely ask[ing]” the OP anything. Have you actually been reading the thread? If so, you saw me asking her just what I said I did. Or do you need a post number also? > [@Do Not Taunt](#): > > I suggest you reread mhendo’s link here: So, you take **mhendo’s** 9/11 commission report as gospel, a report in which the commission accepted the Clinton administrations lies (and we all know that lies are an integral part of any Clintonian endeavor, regardless of the gender of said Clinton), and you totally disregard my numerous sites (including one by an active participant hiimselfin trying to bring bin Laden to task) to the contrary? Typical. ---
**Author:** ![FarmerChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@FarmerChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarmerChick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/62 "2008-12-02T13:41:59Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > [Bush: ‘I was unprepared for war’](http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Bush_I_was_unprepared_for_war_1201.html) I like your rant, just one thing troubles me, > [@](#): > > The members of Congress and other world leaders were looking at the bogus intelligence that YOU (and **fucking Colin Powell** ) showed them! Now I know Powell is a big boy and he went and did his job, but I am of the opinion that he did his best to avoid war. He just couldn’t stop the Bush train. Here is a section for wiki. > [@](#): > > The administration came under fire for having acted on faulty intelligence. Reports have indicated that Powell himself was skeptical of the evidence presented to him.[citation needed] Powell later recounted how Vice President Cheney had joked with him before he gave the speech, telling him, “You’ve got high poll ratings; you can afford to lose a few points.” Larry Wilkerson later characterized Cheney’s view of Powell’s mission as to "go up there and sell it, and we’ll have moved forward a peg or two. Fall on your damn sword and kill yourself, and I’ll be happy, too. > > In September 2005, Powell was asked about the speech during an interview with Barbara Walters and responded that it was a “blot” on his record. He went on to say, "It will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It’s painful now. [Powell/Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell) I have always respected Colin Powell, politics is a very ugly game, in hindsight, he should have listened to himself. > [@](#): > > He was touted as a possible opponent of Bill Clinton in the 1996 U.S. Presidential Election, possibly capitalizing on a split conservative vote in Iowa and even leading New Hampshire polls for the GOP nomination, but Powell **declined, citing a lack of passion for politics** (source is above linked wiki) ---
**Author:** ![FarmerChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@FarmerChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarmerChick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/63 "2008-12-02T13:43:47Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > I keep hearing rumblings about The Hague. Could we dare hope that wheels will be set in motion on January 21, 2009? Oh please yes. > [@sailor](#): > > I do not blame Bush for 9/11 even if it could be found that things could have been done better to prevent it. Sometimes shit happens and it could have happened under any president. What HE did after 9/11 is his responsibility and he has proven to be utterly incompetent and evil. > > But all the blame is not his. I am not sure even most of the blame is his. The Congress went along with the folly. The press and other media cheered along and abdicated their most basic responsibility. The American people re-elected him and so endorsed the crimes and the evil. Other Western countries mostly looked the other way while the knew America was committing huge crimes. Some, quite a few, participated and helped with the rendition flights and with secret prisons. There is plenty of blame to go around. We are all guilty to one degree or another, if only for not having spoken up against all this loudly enough. But we will put all the blame on Bush just like we put it on Hitler after WWII. > > The truth is the American people reject Bush’s legacy because it was a failure in every respect, not because it was criminal. Had the war in Iraq gone well and the economy too the American people would be cheering for Bush and McCain would be in the White House today and they could not care less about the crimes committed in their name in Guantanamo, Iraq or anywhere else. Sad but true. Just like Europpeans look the other way just because it is in their interest. Shameful. Bears repeating, excellent post sailor. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/64 "2008-12-02T14:12:06Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > So, what exactly did Bush do regarding bin Laden prior to 9/11? Well, he had Taliban representatives as guests at the White House, as if they were a legitimate government. What more do you want from the man? [QUOTE=GWB] In other words, I didn’t campaign and say, “Please vote for me, I’ll be able to handle an attack.” [/quote] Isn’t that kinda part of the job description? I can’t believe this asshole is still whining. Yes, George, it’s hard work, or would be if you did your job. I can’t believe some asshole is still repeating that repeatedly-debunked story about Clinton choosing to let bin Ladin slip away. I can’t believe Carol Stream is still a useless cunt – oh, wait, that one’s not exactly a surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/65 "2008-12-02T14:20:17Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I do not blame Bush for 9/11 even if it could be found that things could have been done better to prevent it. Sometimes shit happens and it could have happened under any president. What HE did after 9/11 is his responsibility and he has proven to be utterly incompetent and evil. > > But all the blame is not his. I am not sure even most of the blame is his. The Congress went along with the folly. The press and other media cheered along and abdicated their most basic responsibility. The American people re-elected him and so endorsed the crimes and the evil. Other Western countries mostly looked the other way while the knew America was committing huge crimes. Some, quite a few, participated and helped with the rendition flights and with secret prisons. There is plenty of blame to go around. We are all guilty to one degree or another, if only for not having spoken up against all this loudly enough. But we will put all the blame on Bush just like we put it on Hitler after WWII. > > The truth is the American people reject Bush’s legacy because it was a failure in every respect, not because it was criminal. Had the war in Iraq gone well and the economy too the American people would be cheering for Bush and McCain would be in the White House today and they could not care less about the crimes committed in their name in Guantanamo, Iraq or anywhere else. Sad but true. Just like Europpeans look the other way just because it is in their interest. Shameful. I wish I could disagree with your points, but I can’t. Isn’t there a saying that “success has a thousand fathers, but failure is an orphan”? George Bush didn’t come out of nowhere, seize power and rule as a tyrant. Well, okay, he did sort of, but with a lot of cooperation. Even though the 2000 and 2004 elections were questionable, Bush wouldn’t be in the White House if his simple-minded view of the world didn’t appeal to a lot of us. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/66 "2008-12-02T14:26:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I do recall reading that he and his advisors decided not to kill (“assassinate”) bin Laden because it wouldn’t play well with the public Specifically, those members of “the public” who accused him of perpetrating a “wag the dog” scam when he did take some (admittedly insufficient) actions against bin Laden’s operations. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/67 "2008-12-02T14:36:19Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Specifically, those members of “the public” who accused him of perpetrating a “wag the dog” scam when he did take some (admittedly insufficient) actions against bin Laden’s operations. Do you not agree that had he not been guided by motives that were primarily political, he should have done the right thing and gone after bin Laden anyway rather than conveniently looking at it as a ‘police’ problem and passing it on to the next president? This is one of the things I appreciate about Bush (and most Republican presidents); they do what they think is right rather than what is politically expedient and likely to pay off in tomorrow’s polls or next year’s election (which was Clinton’s M.O. to a tee). ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/68 "2008-12-02T15:00:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > yet you attribute to **mhendo** an insult toward me that he did not make, and you deny the one that he clearly did make. I did what with the who now? Oh, fuck it, don’t bother, you’re not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/69 "2008-12-02T15:16:43Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Sometimes, I ALMOST feel sorry for him. Its like your bachelor brother in law deciding “no problem, I can watch your toddler triplets for the weekend” and then being totally unprepared for emergency room trips and blaming the neighbor for having that swingset anyway. If you add in not realizing that the kids needed feeding and might also require assistance in the potty, your analogy would be spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/70 "2008-12-02T15:18:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s like that scene from _Animal House:_ > > HOOVER: Come on, Otter! You’re the Pledge Chairman! You have to come down and meet the pledges! > > OTTER: Hey, come on, man, you know I can’t handle responsibility! > > HOOVER: Then why did you run for the job?! > > OTTER: I forget. Dubya: You’re Secretary of Defense! Rumsfeld: Why? Dubya: [belch] WHY NOT? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/71 "2008-12-02T15:35:47Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I did what with the who now? > > Oh, fuck it, don’t bother, you’re not worth it. Oh, I think I will bother since I have a little time to kill and it’s your brain that apparently doesn’t ‘work right’. **mhendo** accused me of dishonesty when he said: "‘You mean, “If i had known that you would spot my duplicity and my (all-too-familiar) habit of making baldfaced assertions with no evidence, and using the words ‘I don’t have a cite handy’ as an excuse when people point out my dishonesty.”’ To this I responded with the fact that I said I was posting without a cite prior to any accusations of anything, and I quite reasonably called his own honesty into question as a result. You then claimed – pursuant to claiming my brain doesn’t work right (an ongoing theme from you which you somehow seem to think gains some sort of traction) – that he didn’t call me dishonest but that he called me a dipshit instead. Now, if you’ll go back to the beginning of the thread like a good little boy and use the search function to locate the first use of the word dipshit, you’ll see that it was not **mhendo** but you yourself who first brought it into play. So you’re either dishonest or stupid (though certainly you can and have been both). In this case however, because the error is so obvious, I’m going to go with stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/72 "2008-12-02T15:48:41Z")
Did Bush say he was regretful of hiring Donald Rumsfeld and slating Dick Cheney? Did he say he regretted ever approving torture? Does he regret the fact that Osma Bin Laden is STILL ALIVE AND FREE? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/73 "2008-12-02T15:54:57Z")
You guys really should read Michael Scheuer’s book _Marching Towards Hell: America and Islam After Iraq._ There’s plenty of blame to go around for everyone for this mess we’re in right now. It’s a really good book with a very informed analysis of the USA and the Middle East. > **[Michael Scheuer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer)** > > Michael F. Scheuer (pronounced "SHOY-er"), (born 1952) is an American former intelligence officer for the Central Intelligence Agency, blogger, author, commentator and former adjunct professor at Georgetown University's Center for Peace and Security Studies. One assignment during his 22-year career was serving as Chief of the Bin Laden Issue Station (the Osama bin Laden tracking unit at the Counterterrorism Center, known as "Alec Station") from 1996 to 1999. He also served as Special Advisor to... ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/74 "2008-12-02T16:01:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > He also trashed the reputations of quite a few women who were only telling the truth. You may have confused Bill Clinton with Ken Starr. Thanks to Ken the Puritan, Monica Lewinsky will always be known for one thing and one thing alone: for having Bill Clinton’s cock in her mouth. Think of having to go through life, knowing that that’s the first thing anyone thinks of when they meet you, and knowing that will never change. Think of how little relevance Lewinsky had, in January 1998, to any allegations Ken Starr was pursuing. I don’t want to hear from the Clinton-haters about how Clinton damaged anyone else’s reputation, unless they’ve already railed to the skies about Ken Starr & Co. doing the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/75 "2008-12-02T16:17:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I don’t want to hear from the Clinton-haters about how Clinton damaged anyone else’s reputation, unless they’ve already railed to the skies about Ken Starr & Co. doing the same thing. Not to mention an established record of off-the-scale-ranting at all the reputations, from the entire USA downwards, that the Incompetent-in-Chief has damaged. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/76 "2008-12-02T16:18:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You may have confused Bill Clinton with Ken Starr. > > Thanks to Ken the Puritan, Monica Lewinsky will always be known for one thing and one thing alone: for having Bill Clinton’s cock in her mouth. > > Think of having to go through life, knowing that that’s the first thing anyone thinks of when they meet you, and knowing that will never change. > > Think of how little relevance Lewinsky had, in January 1998, to any allegations Ken Starr was pursuing. > > I don’t want to hear from the Clinton-haters about how Clinton damaged anyone else’s reputation, unless they’ve already railed to the skies about Ken Starr & Co. doing the same thing. Clinton was trashing women (after all, that’s what handling ‘bimbo eruptions’ was all about) long before Ken Starr and Monica Lewinski, so with your kind permission I think I’ll continue to bash him, Ken Starr mentions or no. And besides, there are those of us who think that if Clinton hadn’t maneuvered his dick (and cigar) into the orifices of an impressionable young intern in the first place, there would have been nothing for Ken Starr to latch onto. Bill Clinton is a user and abuser of women and he is far more responsible for Monica Lewinski’s fate than is Ken Starr. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/77 "2008-12-02T16:23:52Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Bill Clinton is a user and abuser of women and he is far more responsible for Monica Lewinski’s fate than is Ken Starr. Funny. I always thought Lewinsky was responsible for her own fate. Shows what I know. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/78 "2008-12-02T16:42:30Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Have you actually been reading the thread? If so, you saw me asking her just what I said I did. Or do you need a post number also? Read for comprehension much? I don’t dispute that you asked that question; I dispute that you “merely” asked it. Where the word “merely” here suggests an innocent question, offered without any suggestion of an agenda behind it. I continue to dispute that, because, let’s be honest, it’s bullshit. You were trying to pull a gotcha. Unfortunately for you, the facts don’t seem to be what you want them to be. > [@](#): > > So, you take **mhendo’s** 9/11 commission report as gospel, a report in which the commission accepted the Clinton administrations lies (and we all know that lies are an integral part of any Clintonian endeavor, regardless of the gender of said Clinton), and you totally disregard my numerous sites (including one by an active participant hiimselfin trying to bring bin Laden to task) to the contrary? What?? It’s not **mhendo’s** 9/11 commission report. He didn’t create it or weigh in on it an way (I’m assuming.) All he did was link to it. Seriously, do you know who the 9/11 commission ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National\_Commission\_on\_Terrorist\_Attacks\_Upon\_the\_United\_States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terrorist_Attacks_Upon_the_United_States)) is? [QUOTE=wiki] the commission consisted of five Democrats and five Republicans. The commission was created by Congressional legislation, with the bill signed into law by President George W. Bush. [/QUOTE] This wasn’t some partisan organization with some agenda to vindicate Clinton. They looked at the evidence of the Clinton/Sudan connection and found it lacking. Perhaps later new evidence will come to light - they didn’t say there was no connection, just that there isn’t really any reason to believe there is one. I looked at your cites, and they were mostly second-hand news reports of that claim, which the non-partisan 9/11 commission rejected. But there was the article by Mansoor Ijaz, in which he claims to have been an active participant in a negotiation, but that claim is uncorroborated. The fact that you’ll take the uncorroborated claim as ‘gospel’ while dismissing the 9/11 commission’s report says a lot more about you than the reverse says about me. > [@](#): > > Typical. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/79 "2008-12-02T16:54:41Z")
**FarmerChick** , I respect your post and points about Colin Powell, but I’ve been scornful of him ever since I heard about his part in trying to cover up Mi Lai, so that also colors my opinion of him. Could he have refused to go in front of the UN with those cheezy drawings and fuzzy photos if he had qualms? I don’t know. He would have been branded a traitor just like the rest of us who expressed doubts. Should he? In my opinion, of course. He’s redeemed himself a bit in my eyes for what he’s done since leaving the Bush administration, and I thank him profusely for endorsing Barack Obama, which surely made the difference in a lot of people’s votes, but I do have a hard time letting go of his part of responsibility, considering all the people who have been killed, maimed and terrorized in Iraq. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I spoke of Clinton’s lies in post #25 and there was no mention of his world-famous blowjob. I could just as easily have been talking about his using Lewinski as a humidor…The words ‘blow job’ first entered the thread when you said them in post #28. Golly gosh gee, when you’re right, you’re right. In post #25 you said: [QUOTE=Starving Artist] Well, we all know Bill Clinton (“ **I did not have sexyul relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinski.**..Well, it depends on what the meaning of is, is”) and his lackeys are as good as their word, don’t well? [/QUOTE] and I said in #28: [QUOTE=Equipoise] Bill Clinton got a blow job! [/QUOTE] Silly me for thinking that your use of “sexyul relations” was referring to the cigar and not the oral sex. How could I have been so off base? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281/80 "2008-12-02T16:57:14Z")
Speaking of cites? Now that you’ve had your beauty rest and all, have you had the time to track down that cite you seem to think that maybe you read somewhere, or something? Or may we take the default position, that you were talking out of your ass? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-the-fuck-up-george/475281.md?page=5)