# Shut up and read, octopus, and you might learn something **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2016, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138 "2016-10-10T08:51:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/61 "2016-10-10T23:28:52Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Not to hijack the pitting too much but ThelmaLou deserves a lot of credit in all this for not understanding or caring how the Pit works. This isn’t the first thread she’s opened in the Pit that was totally out of place. > > It is either really stupid or deliberately insensitive to post a thread surveying victims of sexual assault in the single, only place on the entire board where it’s not only allowed but 100% guaranteed to get drive by jokes, insults, and hijacks. > > This is someone who’s been posting here for six years. She should (and maybe did) know that she would be exposing anyone who posted a sincere reply to her thread to this sort of one-liner or much worse. > > As to the one liner in question I agree with CairoCarol, the person to whom he was replying, that it wasn’t an example of “misogyny”. Calling a stupid one-liner like this an example of some endemic misogyny that some allege exists on the boards really undermines the credibility of such complaints. Yeah, I was kind of a dufus when I located it there. :smack: I’ve never posted in the pit or even read it before a couple of months ago. Why do you say I deserve a lot of credit for posting inappropriate threads here? Seriously. PM me if you don’t want to continue here. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/62 "2016-10-10T23:31:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This reminds me of “accusations of racism are worse than racism”, or “accusations of rape are worse than rape itself”. You did say “imagined”, but there are a lot of actual sexist idiots out there. I agree. Pit them. Or pit me for something that I said that is factually misogynistic. But not acknowledging enginerd’s “feels” as a legitimate offense is irrelevant. And this gas lighting accusation is diabolically Orwellian in practice. With regards to accusations of racism… the problem is the false accusation of racism to exploit a horn and halo effect fallacy by knowingly, falsely disparaging the character of the target of the attack. It’s a despicable and counterproductive tactic and has led to the anti PC backlash that in some ways is responsible for the rise of The Donald. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/63 "2016-10-10T23:35:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I agree. Pit them. Or pit me for something that I said that is factually misogynistic. But not acknowledging enginerd’s “feels” as a legitimate offense is irrelevant. And this gas lighting accusation is diabolically Orwellian in practice. > > With regards to accusations of racism… the problem is the false accusation of racism to exploit a horn and halo effect fallacy by knowingly, falsely disparaging the character of the target of the attack. It’s a despicable and counterproductive tactic and has led to the anti PC backlash that in some ways is responsible for the rise of The Donald. It’s beyond the scope of this thread, but I think these false accusations of racism are much, much less common that the right complains. Further, I think that even when they’ve occurred they’ve been much less damaging then claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/64 "2016-10-10T23:40:26Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m sick of hearing that it’s “just locker room talk” and “all guys do it”. > > No we don’t. A discrete subset of males who should be shunned/arrested do. > Fuck you. > > ETA: even if these pigs do not have daughters, surely they have mothers, right? This is absolutely 100% correct. I’ve heard guys comment on the size of a girl’s chest, or how well her butt fits into those shorts, stuff like that. But I’ve never heard a guy suggest that sexually molesting a woman would be appropriate, nor do I think anyone would receive such a comment without expressing revulsion. After all, most of us have a mother, wife, daughter, or/and a girlfriend so we tend to be protective of women. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/65 "2016-10-10T23:50:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Don’t believe what? You talking about my politics? They aren’t simplistic. I’d vote Democratic if they advocated the right stuff. But I can’t take seriously increases in the minimum wage and free college for useless majors. Or if they made a principle stand for real, justice system reform. But the rat bastards on the left are no different than those on the right. It’s just that the left’s lies sound nicer. > > I haven’t even said who I’m voting for. Kellyanne called, she wants to know if you’re still planning on making a donation? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/66 "2016-10-11T01:53:19Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Yeah, I was kind of a dufus when I located it there. :smack: I’ve never posted in the pit or even read it before a couple of months ago. Why do you say I deserve a lot of credit for posting inappropriate threads here? Seriously. PM me if you don’t want to continue here. By ‘credit’ I meant ‘blame’. You share in the responsibility for that thread getting drive by jokes because it was a bad idea to start it in the Pit given that it was absolutely sure to happen there. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/67 "2016-10-11T02:02:20Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Whenever I’m in a locker room I’m trying to get out as quick as possible so I don’t have to watch old men drying their balls. Where are these locker rooms filled with in depth conversations? What? You want me to go out with my balls all wet? Turn your fucking head! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/68 "2016-10-11T03:11:17Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > By ‘credit’ I meant ‘blame’. You share in the responsibility for that thread getting drive by jokes because it was a bad idea to start it in the Pit given that it was absolutely sure to happen there. I don’t accept responsibility for other people’s stupidity and rudeness. They have the choice not to be jerks no matter how tempting the opportunity. Anyway, I wanted women to be able to verbally knee anyone in the balls who DID make stupid remarks and not have to be “nice” about it. But the first reply said I’d get more traffic if the thread were moved, so that’s when I requested a mod to move it. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/69 "2016-10-11T03:33:11Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > He never called it misogynist. He called it inappropriate. You may not think it was, but you aren’t the only person involved. > > **Enginerd** was uncomfortable with his post, and thought it was inappropriate. He said that he was uncomfortable and was polite about it. **octopus** pulled the same dismissive response that he’s pulled here, so **Engineerd** called him out on it. Then **octopus** went on a rant and assumed it was about you, arguing against the very idea of defending other people. > > Plus, the context is important. **octopus** posted in that thread making a joke, while at the same time constantly defending Trump for bragging about sexual assault using those same words. Even now, I think the only reason he even said anything was that your video gave him an opening for a joke. Any response about how rape is bad from a guy defending those comments seems insincere. > > Even now **octopus** is incapable of understanding the situation. He can only be dismissive in a way that would result in a divorce if it was his wife. I’m not sure why this post rankles - I guess I dislike being scolded when it’s pretty clear, I think, that I was trying to be mild-mannered and reasonable. But okay, I’ll see you a little lecture and raise you a couple of objections: First, “He never called it misogynist. He called it inappropriate.” WTF? He didn’t use the word “inappropriate” in his OP. He did, however, use the word “misogyny”: [QUOTE=enginerd] There’s a persistent vein of misogyny that runs through the SDMB [/QUOTE] Second, “you aren’t the only person involved.” Are you suggesting that we should all refrain from posting about any situation that involves anyone but ourselves? I never claimed to speak for others, (hint: I said, “as far as I’m concerned”) and I also said “This is a perfectly fine rant…So please - carry on and identify/criticize his overall posting history all you want.” Given that I essentially offered no objection to the OP, merely stated a minor clarification regarding how I personally reacted to a post of **octopus** ’, I am not sure why I’m the recipient of your finger-wagging. Are you THAT bored? (Me, I’m not bored. This here post is what we jokingly call a WAD in my house - short for Work Avoidance Device.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/70 "2016-10-11T03:36:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > This is absolutely 100% correct. I’ve heard guys comment on the size of a girl’s chest, or how well her butt fits into those shorts, stuff like that. But I’ve never heard a guy suggest that sexually molesting a woman would be appropriate, nor do I think anyone would receive such a comment without expressing revulsion. After all, most of us have a mother, wife, daughter, or/and a girlfriend so we tend to be protective of women. Donald Trump comments on his own daughter’s body, and calls her a “hot piece of ass”. So obviously, he doesn’t have a clue. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/71 "2016-10-11T04:57:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Donald Trump comments on his own daughter’s body, and calls her a “hot piece of ass”. So obviously, he doesn’t have a clue. He never said anything of the sort. Your “quotes” are garbage and made up - it’s a figment of your imagination. But hey, ‘Rah Rah Hillary!’ at all costs. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/72 "2016-10-11T05:22:56Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > He never said anything of the sort. Your “quotes” are garbage and made up - it’s a figment of your imagination. > > But hey, ‘Rah Rah Hillary!’ at all costs. > **[Donald Trump to Howard Stern: It’s okay to call my daughter a ‘piece of ass’...](https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/08/politics/trump-on-howard-stern/)** > > Warning: This story contains graphic language. Rah Rah Trump! ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/73 "2016-10-11T05:41:56Z")
> [@](#): > > In another interview, from September 2004, Stern asks Trump if he can call Ivanka “a piece of ass,” to which Trump responds in the affirmative. > > “My daughter is beautiful, Ivanka,” says Trump. > > “By the way, your daughter,” says Stern. > > “She’s beautiful,” responds Trump. > > “Can I say this? A piece of ass,” Stern responds. > > “Yeah,” says Trump. He’s responding to Stern’s comment. He didn’t say my daughter is a “hot piece of ass”. Quotes mean nothing here? ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/74 "2016-10-11T06:03:35Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/08/politics/trump-on-howard-stern/](http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/08/politics/trump-on-howard-stern/) > > Rah Rah Trump! I thought the part where he is talks about walking in on the Miss Universe contestants while they were changing their clothes just because he could get away with it was pretty damn creepy, too. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/75 "2016-10-11T06:25:51Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > He’s responding to Stern’s comment. He didn’t say my daughter is a “hot piece of ass”. > > Quotes mean nothing here? What father in their right mind would agree to allow a lech to say his daughter is a “hot piece of ass?” Because being okay with that is some of the most seriously skanky, grotesque, perverted behavior I can imagine a parent condoning. Well, outside of outright molestation or something. Surely that’s not a low bar that most aspire to, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/76 "2016-10-11T07:52:40Z")
I just want to add in that **Leaffan** is making an ass of himself in that thread as well, by quite a bit. Yes, Leaffan, some women molest boys and (presumably) men. But there’s a difference between 1 in 10,000 boys being molested by women and 10,000 in 10,000 women being molested by men. Granted, the linked thread is a series of anecdotes not a survey, so it doesn’t really show the percentiles. But I know that I, at least, have heard regularly that no woman gets to 25 without having been molested in some way. And that just ain’t true for men. And perhaps it’s true that there’s little that your average man can do to combat this. I don’t molest women and I don’t believe that anyone I know would do so either. I’ve never had a scenario where I had to be the one telling the guys I knew to cool down their rhetoric, presumably because I don’t befriend asshats. But there are little things that men can and should be doing, even when they’re in our situation. I had a conversation the other day with a guy where he asked how sexist I was on a scale from 0 to 10, and I said 0. And he was like, “Oh…well I guess I’m a three.” He gave his reasoning and in return I explained why I was at a 0, and probably helped to nudge him closer my way. I suspect he hangs out with guys who are more sexist than he is, so there’s a decent chance that he might one day tell them to cool down the rhetoric. He might raise his sons with a better appreciation for the inherent equality and rights of everyone than he otherwise would. The reason that women molest boys is such a freak incident is at least in part because there’s no one in the world that’s supporting the practice in any real way. That can’t be said for the case of men molesting women. There’s a cultural issue that affects your mom, your wife (if you have one), your daughters (if you have them), sisters, etc. You don’t realistically need to be concerned about your female school teacher fooling around with your son. You do realistically need to be concerned about some guy doing something bad to the women in your life. And if you’re not seeing that distinction, then you’re just an asshat. If you’re not taking to heart the information that you’re getting and using every small opportunity, like the one I had, to change people’s minds, then you’re not doing what you can to keep people safe. And if instead you’re getting onto the Internet and trying to convince people that this is all overblown and that men are just being picked on unfairly, then you’re doing harm. You’re helping to let it continue that every woman across the surface of the planet is being attacked, felt up, and taken advantage of by some men. Why would you do that? Do you really have no women in your life that you care about? Only boys matter? I can appreciate that maybe you’ve had a odds defying string of incidents in your town, of girls attacking boys, and that’s fucking with your brain. But that’s **four** boys. How many people are in your town? Divide that by half and that’s how many women have experienced something similar. 20,000? 50,000? And it wasn’t even fucking news. You want to be enraged, stop reading the newspaper and instead do the math. In summary, you’re a dick. Please fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/77 "2016-10-11T11:15:19Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The reason that women molest boys is such a freak incident is at least in part because there’s no one in the world that’s supporting the practice in any real way. …except all the men who cheer on the 12 year old boys who have sex with their female teachers? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/78 "2016-10-11T14:57:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Donald Trump comments on his own daughter’s body, and calls her a “hot piece of ass”. So obviously, he doesn’t have a clue. > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > He never said anything of the sort. Your “quotes” are garbage and made up - it’s a figment of your imagination. > > But hey, ‘Rah Rah Hillary!’ at all costs. Holy crap. The quotes aren’t \*garbage \*or _made up_. They are somewhat out of context. :rolleyes: And you graciously clarify them with the correct quote below, thereby proving the point you didn’t want to prove. Good job. > [@HeweyLogan](#): > > He’s responding to Stern’s comment. He didn’t say my daughter is a “hot piece of ass”. > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > In another interview, from September 2004, Stern asks Trump if he can call Ivanka “a piece of ass,” to which Trump responds in the affirmative. > > > > “My daughter is beautiful, Ivanka,” says Trump. > > > > “By the way, your daughter,” says Stern. > > > > “She’s beautiful,” responds Trump. > > > > “Can I say this? A piece of ass,” Stern responds. > > > > “Yeah,” says Trump. > > Quotes mean nothing here? What Trump should have said if he were a decent father and a decent human being was, “Howard, my daughter is a very attractive woman, but I’d rather you didn’t refer to her in those terms.” Even Howard had the good sense to ASK the dad if he had permission to use a sexually vulgar term to refer to the daughter. I mean, Howard might have been afraid if he outright called Ivanka a “piece of ass” Trump might have decked him. BUT HE GOT PERMISSION AHEAD OF TIME TO CALL IVANKA A “PIECE OF ASS” **IN FRONT OF HER DAD**. But Trump has said that if she weren’t his daughter, he’d date her (which IMPLIES he’d fuck her)… How can anyone defend or make excuses for this? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/79 "2016-10-11T15:20:47Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Holy crap. The quotes aren’t \*garbage \*or _made up_. They are somewhat out of context. :rolleyes: And you graciously clarify them with the correct quote below, thereby proving the point you didn’t want to prove. Good job. > > What Trump should have said if he were a decent father and a decent human being was, “Howard, my daughter is a very attractive woman, but I’d rather you didn’t refer to her in those terms.” > > Even Howard had the good sense to ASK the dad if he had permission to use a sexually vulgar term to refer to the daughter. Yeah, even THAT was Stern pushing the edge of crass – It should have gone: HS “Can I say a piece of ass?” DT “You’re asking that of a girl’s FATHER, to his face? Come on, Howard!” ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138/80 "2016-10-11T15:56:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > After all, most of us have a mother, wife, daughter, or/and a girlfriend so we tend to be protective of women. Hold on a minute here. Are you saying that some people have a mother, a wife, a daughter AND a girlfriend? I only have a girlfriend. Who the hell are these lucky bewomened people? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shut-up-and-read-octopus-and-you-might-learn-something/768138.md?page=5)