# Shutdown and National Parks **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229 "2013-10-03T00:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/41 "2013-10-04T00:22:49Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Nope…don’t think that much of anything “just happens”. > > Nor do I think that the Administration is managing things other than to take care of their favorites and try to win the political battle. They were pretty quick to open that site up for just the WWWII veterans when it suited them politically. I’m sure I missed it, but when did they reopen the site? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/42 "2013-10-04T00:47:22Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I’m sure I missed it, but when did they reopen the site? They didn’t. The guards just showed some common sense and didn’t make a big deal about turning away the elderly veterans who showed up. But the memorial is still closed and future tour groups have been told to make other plans. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/43 "2013-10-04T00:56:33Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Nope…don’t think that much of anything “just happens”. > > Nor do I think that the Administration is managing things other than to take care of their favorites and try to win the political battle. They were pretty quick to open that site up for just the WWWII veterans when it suited them politically. The administration did NOT open that site. Several republican congress critters were there and opened the gates. The NPS decided to let the WWII vets in on the flimsy basis that they are exercising their first amendment rights. I dare you to go out and arrest WWII vets in wheelchairs. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/44 "2013-10-04T01:30:59Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > They didn’t. The guards just showed some common sense and didn’t make a big deal about turning away the elderly veterans who showed up. But the memorial is still closed and future tour groups have been told to make other plans. They are not guards. They are fully commissioned law enforcement rangers. As LEOs they used their discretionary authority and chose not to enforce the law for the greater good, fully aware that if an incident occurred they would probably be disciplined. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/45 "2013-10-04T02:14:23Z")
I wonder what Stephen Mather would have to say about this mess. America’s Best Idea denied to not just Americans, but to visitors from all over the world because of stupid political gamesmanship. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/46 "2013-10-04T02:35:06Z")
Moved to Elections from Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/47 "2013-10-04T02:36:40Z")
The National Park closest to me is Rocky Mountain National Park, and a very large portion of it’s landscape is alpine tundra. Despite signs all over the place telling visitors that the vegetation is extremely fragile and that they must stay on the established pathways, people constantly wander off the path. When fully staffed, it takes the Rangers spending all their time keeping people in line. With minimal staff, the tundra would be trampled in a week. Just a few people walking over the vegetation can kill it and the few millimeters of soil would get blown away by the high winds. Alpine tundra can literally take hundreds of years to recover. ---
**Author:** ![barnhardt999](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@barnhardt999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barnhardt999)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/48 "2013-10-14T01:23:12Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > If the gates were open right now with only about 12% of the staff still working, I can assure you that the battlefield sites would be packed with people with metal detectors and shovels taking away your heritage. Sorry to hijack my own thread, but what makes you think we want our heritage buried under the ground instead of in the hands of private collections (and the museums collectors often donate to)? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/49 "2013-10-14T01:25:59Z")
> [@barnhardt999](#): > > Sorry to hijack my own thread, but what makes you think we want our heritage buried under the ground instead of in the hands of private collections (and the museums collectors often donate to)? Because collectors are not entitled to enrich themselves off of artifacts that belong to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/50 "2013-10-14T01:40:25Z")
Just like people can’t go into a National Forest and cut down a tree for firewood, obviously people shouldn’t be allowed to dig holes in historic battlefields to steal artifacts. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/51 "2013-10-14T02:13:35Z")
> [@barnhardt999](#): > > Sorry to hijack my own thread, but what makes you think we want our heritage buried under the ground instead of in the hands of private collections (and the museums collectors often donate to)? Exactly. By the way, I’m selling Lincoln’s head from the memorial on Ebay. Please check out my auction if you’re interested! ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/52 "2013-10-14T02:30:45Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > No surprise - they are a concessionaires within the park boundary. If the park is closed, they too need to close. It is in their contract. > > Imagine that a state owned highway rest area is shut down - either for the night, or for good. The McDonald’s doesn’t get to stay open just because the employees there work for McDonald’s, not the state. The land is leased. If I lease land for Lease-Land Inc and their workers strike, I still get to do my business. [This link is by a guy who operates many parks.](http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/category/2013-shutdown) He makes a compelling case. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/53 "2013-10-14T03:08:57Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The land is leased. If I lease land for Lease-Land Inc and their workers strike, I still get to do my business. > > [This link is by a guy who operates many parks.](http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/category/2013-shutdown) > He makes a compelling case. If you lease a store in a mall, do you think that you can do your business when the mall is closed? In any case, the lease has whatever rights the lease has. Look it up and cite it if you think they can stay open. Also, that guy isn’t making a case, he’s making assertions. I’d like to see some verifiable facts to support them. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/54 "2013-10-14T04:15:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you lease a store in a mall, do you think that you can do your business when the mall is closed? > > In any case, the lease has whatever rights the lease has. Look it up and cite it if you think they can stay open. > > Also, that guy isn’t making a case, he’s making assertions. I’d like to see some verifiable facts to support them. If you lease the whole place (not a concession stand) and use no federal money and no federal emplyees work on the place, why do you need to close it? The closing in national parks is because there is no money to pay. The whole pont of these leases is that they pay money to use them. If a company owns several houses and they rent them and the company’s employees go on a strike, I don’t have to leave the house. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/55 "2013-10-14T04:23:48Z")
You think there are any concessionaires who “lease the whole place”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/56 "2013-10-14T04:30:41Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If you lease the whole place (not a concession stand) and use no federal money and no federal emplyees work on the place, why do you need to close it? > The closing in national parks is because there is no money to pay. The whole pont of these leases is that they pay money to use them. > > If a company owns several houses and they rent them and the company’s employees go on a strike, I don’t have to leave the house. So you just didn’t read my post? Get back to me when you have time to respond to what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/57 "2013-10-14T04:42:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you lease a store in a mall, do you think that you can do your business when the mall is closed? > > In any case, the lease has whatever rights the lease has. Look it up and cite it if you think they can stay open. > > Also, that guy isn’t making a case, he’s making assertions. I’d like to see some verifiable facts to support them. No. They say that the USFS can close it if there are good reasons. What facts? That the parks are closed and big-company-leased ones are opened? Hint: read the news. That they don’t use federal money or emplyees? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/58 "2013-10-15T00:05:46Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The land is leased. If I lease land for Lease-Land Inc and their workers strike, I still get to do my business. > > [This link is by a guy who operates many parks.](http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/category/2013-shutdown) > He makes a compelling case. No, he doesn’t operate any parks. He operates IN many parks. I am not a lawyer, I am also not familiar with the contract of every single concessionaire who operates on federally owned land. But, to clarify what you said above: “The land is leased. If I lease land for Lease-Land Inc and their workers strike, I still get to do my business” That may well be true in a strike situation, but this is a bankruptcy. To go back to the mall analogy, that may well be true if the mall owner’s workers strike, but if the mall were to go bankrupt, the individual store owners would still find their doors locked. Right now, there is no funding to open the parks, therefore, the people who run businesses within those parks are also not able to operate. They might have a lease to a certain amount of space, but they don’t own the front door, or the power plant and heating system. Perhaps a better analogy is concession owners at a stadium during a strike or a lock out. Nobody goes to a football stadium just to eat, but if you want to eat while enjoying the game there they are. Well thanks to Congress, there is a lockout of the stadiums/parks right now and the concessions are closed. I am sympathetic to those people, but it is the risk you take. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/59 "2013-10-15T00:15:30Z")
> [@barnhardt999](#): > > Sorry to hijack my own thread, but what makes you think we want our heritage buried under the ground instead of in the hands of private collections (and the museums collectors often donate to)? This has been answered by others, but that heritage belongs to the people of the United States, and not any private collectors. Why should private individuals be able to profit off the property of the United States of America? Others have asked would you allow people to cut down trees in federal forests? Most importantly, this is what the NPS is required to do by law. Our founding legislation states that the job of the NPS “. . . is to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations.” So if we leave the gates unlocked, and let people in to take away resources we are not doing the job that we are legally required to do. > **[National Park Service Organic Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Park_Service_Organic_Act)** > > The National Park Service Organic Act, or the Organic Act as referred to within the National Park Service, is a United States federal law that established the National Park Service (NPS), an agency of the United States Department of the Interior. The Act was signed into law on August 25, 1916, by President Woodrow Wilson. It is codified in Title 54 of the United States Code. > The National Park Service established by the Act "shall promote and regulate the use of the Federal areas known as natio... ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229/60 "2013-10-15T03:00:47Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > No, he doesn’t operate any parks. He operates IN many parks. I am not a lawyer, I am also not familiar with the contract of every single concessionaire who operates on federally owned land. But, to clarify what you said above: > > “The land is leased. If I lease land for Lease-Land Inc and their workers strike, I still get to do my business” > > That may well be true in a strike situation, but this is a bankruptcy. To go back to the mall analogy, that may well be true if the mall owner’s workers strike, but if the mall were to go bankrupt, the individual store owners would still find their doors locked. Right now, there is no funding to open the parks, therefore, the people who run businesses within those parks are also not able to operate. They might have a lease to a certain amount of space, but they don’t own the front door, or the power plant and heating system. > > Perhaps a better analogy is concession owners at a stadium during a strike or a lock out. Nobody goes to a football stadium just to eat, but if you want to eat while enjoying the game there they are. Well thanks to Congress, there is a lockout of the stadiums/parks right now and the concessions are closed. > > I am sympathetic to those people, but it is the risk you take. Sorry, these companies operate the parks 100%. Every single aspect of the parks maintenance is done by the leasees. There are no park ranger opening the door to the park and then using the leasees services. It’s like renting a house. There is no monetary or budget reason to do it unless that means that no one can sell food or medicine in the US because FDA inspector don’t get paid. Also, there is no bankruptcy here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shutdown-and-national-parks/670229.md?page=4)