# Sick and tired of bicyclists ignoring traffic law **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413 "2013-07-13T18:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/61 "2013-07-15T11:23:18Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > You would be very wrong. With the exception of the very outer boroughs most NYC inhabitants, even those with cars, don’t drive them regularly. What are the “very outer boroughs” ? The “outer boroughs” are Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island. Anything more outer than that is not NYC and not a borough. Plenty of NYC residents don’t have cars. In fact , plenty don’t have licenses. But most who \*do \*have cars drive them regularly , unless by “regularly” you only mean to commute to work. It’s too expensive and too much of a hassle to keep a car that is not often used, even in the outer boroughs. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/62 "2013-07-15T11:42:14Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > There are two traffic rules that are critical for the roads to be relatively safe. 1) Drive on the right 2) follow traffic control devices at intersections. Without the vast majority of drivers following these two rules, driving would be epic chaos. > > You can get away with everyone ignoring the speed limit, or not using turn signals, just as long as we’re all going the same direction, and don’t hit each other at intersections. “Get away with it”? You realize the world is full of dead people who skipped one or more safety steps. As Feynmann said about such actions: “everything works fine - then you have a little accident.” > [@](#): > > Cyclists violate the two key laws far more often than cars. Some cyclists feel that going the wrong way is safer for them [Link with folks defending the practice, you have to scroll a bit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=693134&highlight=cyclist+wrong&page=4) , though this is a relatively small minority. I see one person defending it, and a couple of folks trying to explain the action. > [@](#): > > Intersections, OTOH, are another story. Cyclists approach intersections as though there were no traffic control devices at all. Oh, we do, do we? > [@](#): > > They survey the situation and ride through if it appears safe to do so. You just contradicted your previous sentence. It sounds like the cyclists are acting as if there is traffic control given that they are surveying the situation > [@](#): > > Cars do not do this. Cars run red lights by trying to get through on the yellow, and being a bit too late, they don’t approach the light, decide it’s safe, and drive straight through the red (not in any appreciable numbers, at any rate). And a huge number of city accidents and pedestrian strikes happen from cars speeding through stale yellows. > [@](#): > > The fact that large percentages of cyclists could manage to ride through red lights in big cities is amazing, since they would have to dodge cars who have the green light to do so. Or, as so many seem to do, they wait until there is no cross-traffic and run the red light. I don’t do this, but the vast, vast majority of red light running cyclists I see handle matters this way. I don’t like it but I don’t consider it to be the epic chaos-inducing bike mayhem that people claim it is. Meanwhile, cell phone usage has been [cited in 25% of auto crashes.](http://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/cell-phone/cell-phone-statistics.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/63 "2013-07-15T11:43:50Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > What are the “very outer boroughs” ? The “outer boroughs” are Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island. Anything more outer than that is not NYC and not a borough. Plenty of NYC residents don’t have cars. In fact , plenty don’t have licenses. But most who \*do \*have cars drive them regularly , unless by “regularly” you only mean to commute to work. Yes, commuting to work is pretty much what I mean by regularly. I don’t have exact stats but I don’t think most NYC’ers do that. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/64 "2013-07-15T11:56:18Z")
Fintan O’Toole in [The Irish Times](http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/cycling-is-a-good-thing-and-boy-do-cyclists-know-it-1.1423498): > [@](#): > > Here is my contribution to National Bike Week, which starts on Saturday: cyclists are the spawn of the devil. This statement may contain the tiniest tincture of unfair generalisation. But given the widespread tendency to mistake a cycling helmet for a halo, it needs to be said that not all of Hell’s angels ride Harleys. Cyclists like to see themselves as the great oppressed minority of the streets. The truth that dare not speak its name is that the worst oppression is inflicted on the defenceless pedestrian and that two-wheeled yobs do most of the oppressing. > > Cyclists have issues with self-esteem: they have far too much of it. It is hard to blame them. Cycling is indeed a many-splendored thing. It is good for the environment. It shows personal responsibility in the fight against ill-health and obesity. It affords the rest of us images of heroic perseverance: an old lady pedalling up a hill against a rain-sodden West of Ireland winter wind is the visual epitome of human doggedness in the face of the innate cruelty of an absurd universe. The cyclist is Christ on a bike, martyr and saviour all in one. > > The problem with all this goodness is that it creates a sense of rectitude entirely divorced from actual behaviour… He’s writing as a pedestrian. There were some angry letters. In my quiet neighborhood, the streets are quite safe for bicyclists–so they stay off the sidewalks. Want to “walk” your dog in the street? Looks like fun for both of you. On my short walk from light rail to work, I do encounter the occasional cyclist on the sidewalk. There’s real traffic in the streets, how scary for them! At least none of them has been brain-dead enough to bring along his dogs… ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/65 "2013-07-15T12:33:34Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Fintan O’Toole in [The Irish Times](http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/cycling-is-a-good-thing-and-boy-do-cyclists-know-it-1.1423498): > > He’s writing as a pedestrian. There were some angry letters. > > In my quiet neighborhood, the streets are quite safe for bicyclists–so they stay off the sidewalks. Want to “walk” your dog in the street? Looks like fun for both of you. > > On my short walk from light rail to work, I do encounter the occasional cyclist on the sidewalk. There’s real traffic in the streets, how scary for them! At least none of them has been brain-dead enough to bring along his dogs… I can see where he’s coming from since I live in the same city. Cyclists are for the most part complete and utter assholes as regards pedestrian crossings and cycling on footpaths. I see it every day. It seems especially bad in the very centre of Dublin but bad behaviour by cyclists is commonplace anywhere there are cyclists here. When you admonish a cyclist for sailing through a pedestrian crossing they tend to look at you as if you were an alien. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/66 "2013-07-15T12:38:26Z")
does it count as “running” a red light if I ride through when there’s no cross traffic after having waited through at least one cycle in which my bike, in the bike lane, failed to trigger a green for me? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/67 "2013-07-15T13:20:26Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > I don’t know what the streets were like when you have visited Manhattan, but you are totally ignoring taxis,buses, and trucks which during my visits make up a majority of the traffic. :smack: Okay. Increasing the ratio of motor vehicles to bikes on the road in my calculations just makes bicyclists seem _more_ collision-prone in comparison, though, so I’m not sure if that’s the point you want to be making. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/68 "2013-07-15T13:32:20Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Okay. Increasing the ratio of motor vehicles to bikes on the road in my calculations just makes bicyclists seem _more_ collision-prone in comparison, though, so I’m not sure if that’s the point you want to be making. You might want to go back and redo your math ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/69 "2013-07-15T13:35:52Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > You might want to go back and redo your math How much time do you have to wait. Last I heard primary school took somewhere around six years. Maybe you’d best set aside eight - just to be safe. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/70 "2013-07-15T13:44:41Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > You might want to go back and redo your math Okay. Say there are 30 owned cars and 30 taxis, buses and other business motor vehicles on the road at any given time for every bicyclist. The hospital motor:bike pedestrian injury ratio is still 26:1, but now the motor vehicle:bicycle ratio on the road is 60:1. So that means that a bicyclist is, instead of 25%, **130%** more likely than a motorist to cause hospital-worthy injury to a pedestrian. I hope you and **Zeke** are better at bicycling than you are at math. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/71 "2013-07-15T13:44:47Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > If a cyclist breaks a law and causes an accident, he/she will be charged, fined, and punished. Don’t worry about it. I do worry about it, though, because the cyclist who causes an accident is likely to end up in the hospital or the cementery. You know, for example if it’s the one that’s swerving all over the road, geared up in Cyclist Stuff in every day-glo color of the rainbow but apparently not having the fuckingest idea how to bycicle. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/72 "2013-07-15T14:26:36Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Yes, commuting to work is pretty much what I mean by regularly. I don’t have exact stats but I don’t think most NYC’ers do that. You know, we don’t all work in Manhattan. Plenty of us drive to work in Queens or Nassau or Westchester ,etc . ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/73 "2013-07-15T14:28:38Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I do worry about it, though, because the cyclist who causes an accident is likely to end up in the hospital or the cementery. You know, for example if it’s the one that’s swerving all over the road, geared up in Cyclist Stuff in every day-glo color of the rainbow but apparently not having the fuckingest idea how to bycicle. You’re more worried about the properly attired cyclist piloting a light weight, easily maneuverable vehicle with few if any distractions who may or may not be dodging potholes, cracks, garbage, broken glass, oil slicks, and drivers who don’t see her, don’t respect her presence enough to signal for a turn, who crowd her into the curb to prove a point about who has more rights to the road, who cross the road and pull out in front of her because they don’t register her presence or because they think automobiles have right of way over bikes than a smoking, Big Gulp swilling, Facebook updating teen in 4 inch platform shoes piloting an Escalade? You need to get your priorities straight. You are in far more danger from distracted drivers in 2 ton automobiles than you are from the occasional wiley cyclist. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/74 "2013-07-15T14:30:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > As a former cyclist, I take exception to the broad brush you are painting with. > > Your beef is with bicyclists who ignore the law, not with all bicyclists. > > As far as that goes, yeah, cyclists have a responsibility to know the relevant laws and act in accordance with them. Ya know, like all members of society. > > Will you next start a pit thread titled “Sick and tired of bankers ignoring finance laws”? :dubious: > > Save your ire for those who deserve it, please. Pah. I cycle every day and I agree with the OP. At least half of all cyclists, more like 75% in London, are morons. It drives me mad seeing them sailing through red lights, cutting up traffic etc, because it reflects badly on _me_, and makes it that little bit more likely that some driver will take out his frustration on me, on the basis that all cyclists ignore the law anyway. I’m all for instant fines for traffic violations for cyclists. i also agree with that Irish Times piece up there. A lot of cyclists are sanctimonious holier-than-thou assholes, who think they are making some great politically righteous point by hopping on their bike. Fuck off, Lycra-dicks, you’re just pissing everyone off. Shut your traps and allow people who are on bikes _because they want to get somewhere_ get on with it in peace. And don’t get me started on Critical Mass… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/75 "2013-07-15T14:55:48Z")
While I am not fond of lawbreaking cyclists, I find the broad brush hatred of it the OP to be misplaced and often a form of projection. Invariably, these conversations lead to talks of banning or severely curtailing cycling the name of ‘safety’ or our alleged ‘misbehavior’. Complaints about cyclists and demonizing cyclists leads to people treating them like they do not belong on the road, or worse. Examples: > **[Local radio show promotes hatred toward cyclists](https://bikeportland.org/2006/07/14/local-radio-show-promotes-hatred-toward-cyclists-1653)** > > Cyclist Lanette Noble was driving across town yesterday morning when she tuned her radio dial to 95.5 Jammin’ FM and heard the hosts of the Emmy-nominated morning show "The Playhouse" talking about cyclists. She was appalled at what she heard next: ... [http://web.archive.org/web/20060615082341/http://velonews.com/news/fea/5058.0.html](http://web.archive.org/web/20060615082341/http://velonews.com/news/fea/5058.0.html) > **[Detroit Radio Hosts Promote Violence Against Cyclists](https://lmbnews.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/detroit-radio-hosts-promote-violence-against-cyclists/)** > > Detroit talk show hosts Jeff Deminski and Bill Doyle and Station Manager Doug Podell aired reprehensible comments by hosts and listeners encouraging violence against bicyclists. Michigan made natio… ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/76 "2013-07-15T15:55:21Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > While I am not fond of lawbreaking cyclists, I find the broad brush hatred of it the OP to be misplaced and often a form of projection. Invariably, these conversations lead to talks of banning or severely curtailing cycling the name of ‘safety’ or our alleged ‘misbehavior’. I’m with the OP. Every single day i see cyclists blow through stop signs or red lights. I routinely see bicyclists ride the wrong way down one way streets, ride on the sidewalk, and worst of all, ride the wrong way on the sidewalk on a one way street. Imagine waiting to turn left on a one way street and then have someone scoot across the cross walk at 15 MPH on a bicycle just as you start to turn. As a driver I have called 911 when I see drivers blow through red lights. Do cyclists ever do that to fellow cyclists? I’m not even sure how you could since there are no license plate. The other day I saw two cars going the wrong way on a one-way street. There was much honking, flashing of lights, and hand waving, but they eventually stopped and turned around when they saw their mistake. But bicyclists do it on purpose and I see it _every single day_. I know drivers can be assholes, I’ve had a bottle thrown at me while I was riding in the street, but what you don’t see is a message board full of people trying to defend them or complaining about a broad brush. The solution is pretty easy: require a license plate on bikes and cyclists to complete a short test showing they understand the traffic laws. Then some police on the street on bicycles to issue tickets to the scofflaws. After writing a couple hundred tickets in one day (easy to do in Portland), the nonsense would stop. I have every reason to support additional bike lanes, but my good will is being rapidly eroded by the small (but significant) percentage of cyclists who deliberately ignore the rules of the road. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/77 "2013-07-15T16:06:24Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > A lot of cyclists are sanctimonious holier-than-thou assholes, who think they are making some great politically righteous point by hopping on their bike. Fuck off, Lycra-dicks, you’re just pissing everyone off. Shut your traps and allow people who are on bikes _because they want to get somewhere_ get on with it in peace. Since everyone on a bicycle is driving with fewer distractions, contributing less pollution and the use of fossil fuels as well as getting a fair amount of exercise that probably offsets exorbitant insurance costs of obesity related illnesses, they kinda have the right to be a little sanctimonious. > [@fumster](#): > > The solution is pretty easy: require a license plate on bikes and cyclists to complete a short test showing they understand the traffic laws. Then some police on the street on bicycles to issue tickets to the scofflaws. After writing a couple hundred tickets in one day (easy to do in Portland), the nonsense would stop. Fantastic proposal. What are you going to do to see that it passes? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/78 "2013-07-15T16:14:08Z")
> [@3trew](#): > > I use a simple formula. When cycling I assume all drivers are drunk sociopaths with visual impairments. When driving I assume all cyclists are cracked out and suicidal and have had their ability to judge risk ruined by a head injury. So far it’s been pretty effective. The only reason that your assumptions are effective is that they are accurate. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/79 "2013-07-15T16:25:04Z")
> [@](#): > > The one I refer to is a six lane road intersecting with an eight lane road. I rarely see bikes on it and running the red there is suicide. If the only roads you can think of where cyclists don’t misbehave are roads on which cyclists don’t _appear_, that doesn’t exactly make cyclists seem well-behaved, does it? > [@](#): > > Ummm, your link is for the entire state of NY. Also, where is the stat saying cyclists cause some 500 pedestrian injuries per year? [Here it is again.](http://www.hunter.cuny.edu/communications/repository/files/Pedestrian%20Cyclist%20Accidents_3.pdf) Bottom of page 3: 1,000 hospital visits in New York per year. Top of page 8: 55% of them in New York City. Learn to read. > [@](#): > > According to most data points, NYC accidents between cyclist & pedestrian are about 26 or so per quarter. If you have any information that you _didn’t_ yank straight out of your asshole, feel free to share it with the rest of us. > [@](#): > > Your conclusions are bullshit as a result. Furthermore, much of your data is old. Yeah, since there are more bicyclists now than there were in 2010, I’m sure bike accidents are much less common now! Except for the fact that that’s _completely retarded._ > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, for the last quarter of 2011, [all boroughs report 26 injuries requiring hostpitalization](http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/bicycle-crash-data-report-2011.pdf), extrapolating out we can probably say 104 injuries in 2011 with let’s say a ‘worst case’ being about 200. Much less than the 500 figure you gave. That’s compiled from _police reports_, dumbass. The numbers that I am using were compiled from hospital records. What that tells me is that most people who visit the hospital after bike collisions don’t go to the police. So much for enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![jaymac1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaymac1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaymac1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413/80 "2013-07-15T16:33:12Z")
I cannot cycle anymore due to my health but when I did I always followed the rules of the road, even as a 15 year old. When I’m driving my car I’m always watching for bad cyclists. Cyclists are especially poor in Glasgow, where I live. One came out of a side road on a red light right in front of my brothers bus! (He was ok fortunately, but my brother was a wee shaken up). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-and-tired-of-bicyclists-ignoring-traffic-law/663413.md?page=5)