# Sick of racist ethnic restaurants **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805 "2013-04-16T01:30:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/61 "2013-04-16T19:23:44Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Not sure what the issue is here, or what you’re trying to prove with your link to a dictionary, which 1) is just some kind of internet dictionary, so, like, :rolleyes:, and 2) does not even contradict or undermine what I’m saying. I’m just going to assume this is some sort of whoosh that I’m not getting. > > Again, I don’t think that being helpful and being racist are necessarily mutually exclusive. A lot of colonialist thought is premised on the notion that Europeans are in a position and under an obligation to bring civilization, progress, etc., to the rest of the world, which in and of itself can be seen as a benevolent attempt to be helpful but is also based on condescending and racist assumptions. I don’t think that what this Nigerian lady did is the equivalent of colonizing entire continents wholesale, it’s not a very big deal at all. But it does not logically follow that it was an attempt to serve customers better so it can’t be racist. Since we’re picky about sources, Meriam Webster’s [definition](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism). There is a substantial difference between discrimination and mild inconvenience. I don’t think the White Man’s Burden has anything to do with this conversation. Comparing the subjugation of another culture “for their own good” and a restaurant worrying that someone ordered the wrong dish is… Silly. Racism is not the right word to describe the OP’s situation. To characterize it as such would undermine actual racism. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/62 "2013-04-16T19:34:57Z")
I recently had a Mexican cab driver take me on a late afternoon search for a half kilo of lard. Every store was sold out. He looked amused. When he finally snickered I asked him what was so funny. He said he didn’t know gringas ate lard. It was totally not racist. We had a good laugh. I talked about the many uses of good lard in my Scandinavian and American recipes and did the general foody thing on the way back. Did he go back to his taxi-driving friends and make fun of the crazy American woman? I dunno. Doubt it. But I hope they had a good laugh and at least one more small bond of familiarity was forged. As long as no one is giving me hostile stares or acting like they don’t want to serve me I don’t feel much feather ruffling. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/63 "2013-04-16T19:53:32Z")
If you seriously think a dictionary will provide guidance on an issue that is the subject of so much thought, theorizing, and analysis, then you have no business talking about it. Just because there’s far more serious forms of racism than this, which I’ve readily acknowledged in both my posts, does not mean that this can’t be termed racism. That ‘real stuff’ argument that **Procrustus** and **Grey Area** make doesn’t fly. There’s nothing in the concept (including in those dictionary sources) that offers any basis for distinguishing between benevolent and malevolent racism, or between serious and just mildly inconvenient racism - it’s about the basis of assumptions, not about whether assumptions lead to well-intended behavior or not, or about how those results are experienced. Now if you were to argue that there is nothing to suggest that this lady thinks of herself as _superior_ to **grude** for allegedly not being able to appreciate her food, then you might be getting somewhere, and I think I might grant that. Nonetheless, it’s certainly possible that what this lady did reflects that she makes assumptions on the basis of people’s looks, particularly race, which would fall under some admittedly broader but for that reason no less valid definitions of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/64 "2013-04-16T19:54:56Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > There’s a Thai restaurant in Shirley in Birmingham (UK) called… Shirley Temple. > > What do I win? And then there is the whole genre of jokey Pho restaurants… [Pho King Delicious](http://www.yelp.com/biz/pho-king-delicious-northridge-2) [Good Pho You](http://www.goodphoyou.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/65 "2013-04-16T19:57:22Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Nonetheless, it’s certainly possible that what this lady did reflects that she makes assumptions on the basis of people’s looks, particularly race, which would fall under some admittedly broader but for that reason no less valid definitions of racism. Making assumptions on the basis of people’s looks (or race) is\* not\* a valid definition of racism. I’m sure there are words for that behavior, but “racist” isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/66 "2013-04-16T20:03:03Z")
Do you have any actual arguments to back up that view, or should I just take your word for it? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/67 "2013-04-16T20:06:44Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Do you have any actual arguments to back up that view, or should I just take your word for it? That’s why I linked to the dictionary. It contains summaries of what words mean. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/68 "2013-04-16T20:12:42Z")
What are you, twelve? Racism, like many other concepts, is essentially contested, and there’s a variety of different but equally valid ways to think about it. No dictionary is going to put a conceptual theoretical debate like this to bed, and if you think it might, which you seem to do, you have no business being in this debate in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/69 "2013-04-16T20:22:24Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > What are you, twelve? Racism, like many other concepts, is essentially contested, and there’s a variety of different but equally valid ways to think about it. No dictionary is going to put a conceptual theoretical debate like this to bed, and if you think it might, which you seem to do, you have no business being in this debate in the first place. I am aware that the term “racism” can be used in different manners. In fact, when I was in college, we were taught that only white people could be racist, because racism needed both prejudice and the power to act on it in an institutional way. Since Blacks, and other minorities, didn’t hold such power, they were, by definition, unable to be “racist.” There is a “broader” definition (to use your term), but even that requires something negative: > [@](#): > > a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. I’m not sure about “the right to rule others” part of that. Wikipedia does acknowledge that “some” have adopted your view: > [@](#): > > Some definitions would have it that any assumption that a person’s behavior would be influenced by their racial categorization is racist, regardless of whether the action is intentionally harmful or pejorative. Other definitions only include consciously malignant forms of discrimination This use of the term seems to make it essentially useless, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/70 "2013-04-16T20:30:35Z")
So what I’ll take away from this is that you acknowledge that dictionaries are not great starting points for discussions like this, and that you acknowledge that an understanding of racism broader than your own is a possibility. That’s great. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/71 "2013-04-16T20:58:29Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I am aware that the term “racism” can be used in different manners. In fact, when I was in college, we were taught that only white people could be racist, because racism needed both prejudice and the power to act on it in an institutional way. Since Blacks, and other minorities, didn’t hold such power, they were, by definition, unable to be “racist.” . 😕 You don’t think that there are “races” with institutional power who aren’t white? What backwards educational institution did you go to? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/72 "2013-04-16T21:22:11Z")
There would have been no way to serve me better, the place only sells suya beef/chicken/lamb and various sides. Its not like she could tell me to try the cheeseburger. In any case no I don’t think its a civil rights violation or as bad as Jim Crow, it is an annoyance nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/73 "2013-04-16T22:33:14Z")
> [@grude](#): > > …Seriously WTF? I’ve had this same experience now in two different countries, everything from Japanese to Serbian places and Indian places, even a Brit place when I was buying black pudding. Seriously just cuz a white guy marches in and orders specific items they have to wonder what exactly? Are there a lot of people just walking in and ordering specific dishes and then what? Getting mad it isn’t McDonalds? > > It is really annoying! Your problem is not “racist.” Because of the black pudding. You were assumed to belong to an ethnic group that might not appreciate certain menu items-- because of what less cosmopolitan members of your ethnic group did. Yes, there probably \*were \*some “incidents.” If you like the food, make some return visits; you’ll soon be an old regular. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/74 "2013-04-16T22:33:41Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > Not sure what the issue is here, or what you’re trying to prove with your link to a dictionary, which 1) is just some kind of internet dictionary, so, like, :rolleyes:, and 2) does not even contradict or undermine what I’m saying. I’m just going to assume this is some sort of whoosh that I’m not getting. The link is for Random House and Collins Dictionary cites. They’re not exactly OED (at least less history), but hardly Urban Dictionary… ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/75 "2013-04-16T22:49:16Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > What are you, twelve? Racism, like many other concepts, is essentially contested, and there’s a variety of different but equally valid ways to think about it. No dictionary is going to put a conceptual theoretical debate like this to bed, and if you think it might, which you seem to do, you have no business being in this debate in the first place. I’m not sure what your debate is about but what _I_ was discussing was the use of the the **word** “racism” to describe the OP’s situation. Yes words can be symbols for concepts (as in this case) and often there is no brightline between what falls under the category of a certain word and what doesn’t. But this situation falls _so far_ outside of what is usually meant by the word ‘racism’ that it merits correction. To be honest I don’t know what the proper phrase would be to describe this situation other than “inconvenience” and I don’t particularly care. But I do know it’s not “racism”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/76 "2013-04-16T23:09:21Z")
This discussion is getting silly. “Racist” treatment is treatment based on race that confers an unfair advantage or disadvantage or some other positive or negative social, economic, personal, or political consequence. _Denial of service_ based on race is racism. Just trying to ensure that you are not going to be displeased with your order isn’t racist. ---
**Author:** ![friendlessboob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@friendlessboob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friendlessboob)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/77 "2013-04-16T23:13:23Z")
When I tried to order a Durian (sp?) fruit smoothy at a Malay place they tried to dissuade me, more than once. I had heard about Durian and wanted to try it. It tasted like vanilla-onion-feet pudding, so I drank very little of it. That being said, I didn’t refuse to pay or something weird and wasn’t unhappy with my dining experience (goat curry, yum) which is probably what they were trying to prevent. Considering that people (especially guys) will get all “I can handle anything” or take perverse pride in eating “weird” food, if I owned a shop I would be gun shy about serving anything out the “norm” to someone who didn’t look and sound like the ethnic group the food originated with. I guess the difference is being cautious, or even rude about serving some dish, and refusing to grant a home loan. “You don’t want 2.3%, TOO spicy, we will give you a DENIED instead” I, personally, think racism is bad. Also I am a white American, so my opinion is dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/78 "2013-04-16T23:17:36Z")
Funny story: I was in Hong Kong alone once, and I was hungry in the morning so I went to this dim sum place. I got a place at a table, but I had a hard time getting any of the carts to come my way, and the few that did had stuff that I didn’t want. Finally a cart came by with what looked to be some yummy meaty dish, so I asked for a helping. The server tried to talk me out of it (in Chinese) but I didn’t know why, so I insisted. Turned out to be chicken feet. Tasty, true, but a damn annoyance to eat. I got tired of trying, so I paid and left. Why did she try to talk me out of it? My guess then was that she thought us foreign devils wouldn’t like the taste. My guess now is that it isn’t something that people normally eat by itself - probably one dish like I had would serve a few people over rice, or something. But who knows? I don’t assume that I was the target of racism, I was only the target of an attempt to improve my eating experience. My ignorance (of the food and of the language) was the real problem. Now the OP was not ignorant of the food he was ordering, but the server didn’t know that, and maybe it was a statistical probability (in the server’s experience) that he didn’t know the food and wouldn’t like it when it came. If someone makes an assumption about you in order to try to help you have a better experience, it seems folly to be offended. Unless you like to be offended, or were just fishing for a topic to post about. As for the slap fight about dictionaries, I wish you two would go settle it in the pit or somewhere. But that’s just me. Maybe the others find you entertaining. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/79 "2013-04-16T23:18:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This discussion is getting silly. “Racist” treatment is treatment based on race that confers an unfair advantage or disadvantage or some other positive or negative social, economic, personal, or political consequence. _Denial of service_ based on race is racism. Just trying to ensure that you are not going to be displeased with your order isn’t racist. What a racist thing to say! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805/80 "2013-04-16T23:24:45Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Turned out to be chicken feet. Tasty, true, but a damn annoyance to eat. I got tired of trying, so I paid and left. Really? A damn annoyance? I love chickens’ feet. You pop a piece into your mouth, suck on it to separate the bones from the skin, remove the bones from your mouth, and enjoy! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sick-of-racist-ethnic-restaurants/655805.md?page=5)