# "SiCKO".......W O W!......... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 16, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291 "2007-06-16T22:00:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/81 "2007-07-10T13:33:44Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] Just got back from watching it… I thought it was amazingly good. A few comments: (1) Moore basically came right out and said that the treatment the firefighters got in Cuba was the same treatment that average Cubans would get. If that is not true, I am disappointed. [/QUOTE] It was not true. Ameijeiras Hospital is not a place you just walk off the streets into. It is the most modern and well equiped hospital in all of Cuba, and ordinary Cubans do get sent there, but only when their case is particularly difficult, like an organ transplant, and once you get sent there you get put in a waiting list that may be months long. The fact that Moore and his crew to simply walk into that hospital and get treatment is not something ordinary Cubans can do. Also, remember Dr. Aleida Guevara talking about how good Cuban medicine was and how bad its American equivalent was? Dr. Aleida Guevara is Che Guevara’s daughter a highly placed apparatchik in the Cuban government. Moore is not only telling lies, he is also lying by what he is not saying. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/82 "2007-07-10T16:52:57Z")
[QUOTE=lalenin] It was not true. Ameijeiras Hospital is not a place you just walk off the streets into. It is the most modern and well equiped hospital in all of Cuba, and ordinary Cubans do get sent there, but only when their case is particularly difficult, like an organ transplant, and once you get sent there you get put in a waiting list that may be months long. The fact that Moore and his crew to simply walk into that hospital and get treatment is not something ordinary Cubans can do. [/quote] Well, that’s not as bad as “this is a hospital that only rich Cubans and tourists ever get in to”, although arguably still deceptive. > [@](#): > > Also, remember Dr. Aleida Guevara talking about how good Cuban medicine was and how bad its American equivalent was? Dr. Aleida Guevara is Che Guevara’s daughter a highly placed apparatchik in the Cuban government. Moore is not only telling lies, he is also lying by what he is not saying. Given that she was labelled on screen as “Che Guevara’s Daughter”, I don’t feel like he was particularly trying to hide that. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/83 "2007-07-10T18:08:44Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] Given that she was labelled on screen as “Che Guevara’s Daughter”, I don’t feel like he was particularly trying to hide that. [/QUOTE] I don’t doubt what you say, but I did not see that identification, then again I was not reading any of the subtitles. I’m pretty sure though that she was not identified as government spokesman which she certainly is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/84 "2007-07-10T23:01:12Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] We probably would too if someone had been paying for our defense for the past 50 years. [/QUOTE] Which they no longer need, you know, and have not since 1990. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/85 "2007-07-10T23:11:21Z")
I haven’t seen the film yet, but I understand Moore tells us how wonderful it is when we can get expensive medical care for free. Sounds delightful. Nirvana, even. Does he tell about the cost to the taxpayers? How much is each taxpayer paying for this marvelous, free coverage? Or has he found a free fountain of funds that no one else can find or fathom? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/86 "2007-07-10T23:56:00Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] I haven’t seen the film yet, but I understand Moore tells us how wonderful it is when we can get expensive medical care for free. Sounds delightful. Nirvana, even. Does he tell about the cost to the taxpayers? How much is each taxpayer paying for this marvelous, free coverage? Or has he found a free fountain of funds that no one else can find or fathom? [/QUOTE] No, and I wish he had, specifically. I don’t know if that is covered on his website. He did discuss at length a French family and how nice their house is and stuff and what their income is, the implication being that they are not crushed under mountains of tax debt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/87 "2007-07-11T00:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 😃 Heh-heh-heh . . . Moore has [gotten hold of a leaked memo](http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=215) from a Blue Cross executive who went to see _Sicko_ for purposes of deciding how the industry should react to it. [/QUOTE] It’s interesting how Moore distorts the content of the memo, in the first two examples of your quote. Perhaps that’s why some people are not too keen to listen to him-- he’s seems to be more agenda driven than fact driven. He’s the guy writing the OpEd piece, not the reporter trying to stay objective. > [@Moore](#): > > “Sicko” leaves audiences feeling “ashamed to be…a capitalist, and part of a ‘me’ society instead of a ‘we’ society.” > [@Memo](#): > > In the second half of the movie, Moore walks us through individual stories of the Canadian, British, French, and Cuban health care systems where everything is free and - he reminds us repeatedly - no one is ever denied service because they can’t pay. In addition to health care, the government provides free day care, college, and someone to do your laundry. Everybody gets along and takes care of each other and life is beautiful because there is universal health care. As a viewer, you are made to feel ashamed to be an American, a capitalist, and part of a ‘me’ society instead of a ‘we’ society - and the lack of universal health care is held up in support of that condemnation. “you are made to feel…” vs “leaves the audience feeling”. Not a lie, per se, but a completely different sense of what the memo is trying to convey. > [@Moore](#): > > He walks out of the theater only to witness an unusual sight: people – strangers – mingling and talking to each other. “‘I didn’t know they (the insurers) did that!’ was a common exclamation followed by a discussion of the example,” according to Fitzpatrick. > [@Memo](#): > > As a health care industry educated viewer it is easy to pick out where Moore is cultivating misperceptions to further a political agenda, but you will also recognize that 80%+ of the audience will have their perceptions substantially affected. In demonstration of its impact, an informal discussion group ensued outside the theatre after the movie. While some people recognized how one-sided the presentation was, most were incredulous and “I didn’t know they (the insurers) did that!” was a common exclamation followed by a discussion of the example. Nothing about this being an “unusual sight” or that the people talking to each other were strangers. That’s something Moore just made up. The key finding in that paragraph was not so much that there were informal discussions after a movie-- I see those all the time. The key finding was that even though people recognize the selective nature of Moore’s examples, they still seem to believe that he’s being objective in his presentation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/88 "2007-07-11T01:37:08Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s interesting how Moore distorts the content of the memo, in the first two examples of your quote. Perhaps that’s why some people are not too keen to listen to him-- he’s seems to be more agenda driven than fact driven. He’s the guy writing the OpEd piece, not the reporter trying to stay objective. [/quote] You are able to say that only because Moore **posted** the memo, verbatim, on the same page (and in a pdf file on a different page). He’s not trying to hide anything. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/89 "2007-07-11T02:27:07Z")
[QUOTE=lalenin] I don’t doubt what you say, but I did not see that identification, then again I was not reading any of the subtitles. I’m pretty sure though that she was not identified as government spokesman which she certainly is. [/QUOTE] She was identified as Che Guevera’s daughter. It’s perfectly reasonable to expect the audience to be able to understand the implications of that lineage. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/90 "2007-07-11T04:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] You are able to say that only because Moore **posted** the memo, verbatim, on the same page (and in a pdf file on a different page). He’s not trying to hide anything. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say “hide”, I said “distort”. How many people, do you think are going to take the time to actually read the memo as opposed to just his summary? You didn’t seem to, or at least you didn’t offer any criticism of his analysis at all. Andthat analysis sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2007, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291/91 "2007-07-11T11:37:26Z")
[QUOTE=Shalmanese] Socialised medicine is such an obviously good idea that it’s amazing Michael Moore could do such a poor job of promoting it. The level of rhetoric in Sicko never raises above “corporations are evil and the government only wants the best for you”. What he completely doesn’t delve into is the economic realities of medicial care that make it such a thorny problem. A half million dollar operation costs half a million dollars no matter if insurance or the government pays for it, Ultimately, that represents half a million dollars that could have been spent on other things if this operation didn’t have to go ahead. Corportations aren’t arbitrarily denying care because they get their jollies off on it, they’re doing it because if they didn’t, medical care would be priced out of what people are paying for now. Governments are pressured to reduce spending on healthcare to lower taxes and they do that by lowering the quality of services. Corporations are pressured to lower spending to lower premiums and they do it by finding ways to weasel out of service. One way degrades quality for millions of people slightly and the other way fucks over a small proportion of people. Obviously, the second way makes for more television friendly fodder but nothing in this equation demonstrates that one way is inherently a better way than the other for controlling costs. Instead, the real arguments for socialised care come from the unique economic circumstances that healthcare occupies which makes market failure unavoidable because you simply can’t align incentives with cost in any meaningful manner. Unless you’re a libertarian jerkoff who refuses to believe that market failure exists, the economic case for socialised medicine is astoundingly overwhelming. Socialised care represents the best way out of a shitty situation, but NONE of that was presented in this film. It was all just a bunch of “lookee here, Horror story no 1, Horror story no 2, smiling canadians, Horror story no 3, smiling cubans, fin” [/QUOTE] I agree with this. I saw this movie last night. Moore is best at finding emotional anecdotes that point out absurdities and flaws in policies. But, he’s not great at stringing together cohesive, logical arguments. The first, clearly, makes for better movies, and maybe that is the kind of thing that is needed to get people to act on an issue like this. I think that his emotional approach was a stronger tactic in Bowling for Columbine and F9/11. But, there are numerous, logical reasons for the health care mess and it’s way beyond the fact that Big Insurance denies claims and that a lot of senators are in the pockets of Big Pharma. And the solution is a lot more difficult than “be like the French”. (although, I do like the French way of life). One could start here for a lot of intelligent words on the subject. > **[The Health Care Crisis and What to Do About It | Paul Krugman, Robin Wells](https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2006/03/23/the-health-care-crisis-and-what-to-do-about-it/)** > > The good news is that we know more about the economics of health care than we did when Clinton tried and failed to remake the system. There's now a large [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko-w-o-w/408291.md?page=4)