Yes, sorry, I meant 1 out of 5. Don’t forget that the federal government is only one level. State, county, and municipal governments employ a lot of people too. And “works for the government” doesn’t mean “is a government employee”. There are contractors and people who work for contractors who are primary suppliers of goods and services to government. It is because those people are paid with tax dollars that their incomes are associated with the incomes of actual government employees. The Christian Science Monitor cites a study by an economist, Gary Shilling:
Mr. Shilling’s analysis found that about 1 in 5 Americans hold a government job or a job reliant on federal spending.Do you have a cite to the contrary?
You are proving his point, one of the things I did notice from the previews is that he took them to Cuba alright, but it was to Guantanamo first, (I have noticed that the news bits in right wing media circles avoided mentioning that fact, making Fred Thompson then sound like a moron) the overall point of the movie was in play: universal health care should be for all. It was indeed the intension to shame the current government by taking the rescuers of 9/11 to a place even evildoers get health care.
Being refused access in Guantanamo then Moore did go to Castro’s Cuba, as I said in the other thread, I do think the context shows that it is not a flattering thing to say about the Cuban heath care that they were the second choice. The more I hear about how terrible is the heath care in Cuba the more the point is true: even the country with the worst public health care* was willing to help the 9/11 rescue workers.
If the worst universal heath care can help and the greatest private health care can not, Then one has to sincerely say that there is a problem, and it is high time that we shamed even more the defenders of the current irrational health care in the USA.
and even so I do think the figures that “show” Cuba as bad are suspect, I mean I do think Cuba’s power in health care has lots of propaganda. However, when even the CIA fact book and other sources all show that the people of Cuba and the United States have about the same life expectancy, I would say the anti-Castro side is not so accurate (and neither the pro Castro one I should add) so I would think health care in Cuba is not so bad, but not a place I would go, I would rather go to Spain.
In a key moment in the film, Moore takes a group of patients by boat to the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba because of its outstanding medical care. When they can’t get into the U.S. naval base, Moore proceeds onto Havana where the patients are treated well and cheaply.‘Sicko’ Shows Michael Moore’s Maturity as a Filmmaker
I know, I was the one that posted that film review from FOX in the other thread, when I saw Fred Thompson and others not mentioning that, the only conclusion I got is that they are either idiotic, just attempting to mislead, or ignorant. Take your pick.
The thing is, it is fascinating that even if the news is out there, we still see posters and politicians that completely ignored that bit and still go for misleading even after “reading the information”.
Point being that people that claim to be informed are still getting it wrong. So I do not think the right wing media spread much of that bit of news coming from their entertainment division.
Right, as I said, Do you mean “drawing a government paycheck”, or do you include “doing private-sector work on government projects”? The guys over at Blackwater USA, for example, can easily be counted as government folk, and I recognize that. One in four just seemed improbably high (and it was, high by a fifth).
I’m going to guess that these are the same numbers Stossel mentioned. I don’t have a countercite, so I’ll have to accept it for now, though I’m a little curious about the methodology behind the study. I can think of quite a few ways to count, all reasonably legitimate, that would skew the numbers dramatically one way or the other. It’s interesting reading; thank you!
You’re welcome. I think we can both agree on what you’re saying here. I would just point out, though, that the difference wasn’t a fifth. It was a difference of 1/4 - 1/5 = 1/20 (or 5%).
The only reports and clips that I have seen suggest that Moore is making the point that the Guantanamo detainees receive better health care than US citizens.
Perhaps the Republican & Fox News did not think the film promoted “socialism.” Many people don’t equate universal health care with socialism.
However–the people you mentioned actually saw the film. I haven’t yet, so I can’t give my opinion. Since you proclaim you won’t see it until it’s on TV, perhaps you should postpone your judgment.
When my sister was born (in Canada where my parents were landed immigrants from the U.S. and therefore qualified for health care), for some reason the hospital decided to send my mom home with an itemized invoice that showed the full cost of her hospital stay, the C-section, and all my sister’s post-natal care. The total on the invoice was $XX,000.00 (I don’t remember) but the balance due on the invoice was $0.00.
My mom thought that was a really cool idea. That way Canadians could see for themselves how much the high taxes were actually benefitting them in some kind of tangible form. To actually see that the hospital could send you home with a bill for $10,000, but that provincial health insurance paid it for you, would be a great way for Canadians to learn not to take the system for granted.
I assume they stopped doing the zero-balance invoice thing because it was causing some kind of confusion.
What difference does it make if tyranny is executed by a Party Chairman or by Mob Referendum? A gang rape is not mitigated by the fact that all the boys consented.
It’s preferable to tyranny by unrepresentative, unaccountable corporations, which amounts to market-fascism.
There’s no use being “free” if you’re sick or bankrupted through sickness. The freedom to starve is no freedom at all.
And besides, keeping the workforce healthy is good for business, and universal healthcare prioritises preventative medicine as a matter of course, because prevention is cheaper than cure.
So are you in principle against democracy? Would you prefer one dollar, one vote?
Everybody in America should see this film. It will make you laugh. It will make you mad. It will make you sad.
It should be a call to action to all Americans.
However, I boldly predict that it will have absolutely zero, zilch, nada, effect on our horrible health care system and the greedy insurance companies that run it. Everything will stay just as unfair and corrupt as it is today long after I have died because I couldn’t afford the medical care that would have saved my life.
Or maybe I’ll find me a nice Canadian lady to marry.
Relating a gang rape to universal health care or even socialized health care is redonkulous. The Libertarian way is that taxes are legalized plunder. If you’re opposed to the very idea of the healthcare on philosophical differences, then haven’t you already gone on and said your piece? Essentially, it’s like trying to tell an athiest that they should believe in god because they have souls that they don’t acknowledge and sins and yadda yadda yadda.
If you want to argue about it, then start yet another Great Pit thread about it and let’s carry on for round 5 billion. Outside of that, I think we’re beating dead emus. Or some such shit.
Having just seen the movie, I’ll say that his message is strongest (IMO) when he says what’s wrong with our system. People getting dumped by hospitals at free clinics, people who can’t get approved for insurance, people who have insurance but not enough, people who get approved for partial coverage, people who get approved for treatment, get the treatment, then get their approval retroactively canceled – it made me pretty damn sick (pun intended). Moore interviewed a woman who took phone applications for insurance. She said that for one couple’s application, she knew, just from having taken their application, that they wouldn’t get approved, and so her heart broke when she heard them tell each other that everything would be better now because they’d get insured.
It’s fucked up. You can recite all the statistics you want about how much universal (or socialized, if you insist on being inflammatory) health care sucks, but you know what sucks more? Sick people getting shit upon. Look, I realize that insurance companies lose money when they give health insurance to the sick. To me, the only solution is some sort of, oh, I dunno, universal health care, provided to everyone regardless of health or wealth.
The weaker parts of the film are when he talks up the virtues of Canadian, British, French, and Cuban health systems. I know he’s leaving stuff out, I know he’s prescreened his interviews to present the non-American health system as utterly flawless. He’s being weasely, to be succinct, and I know it.
But he doesn’t have to do any tricks like that to show how much our system is just an abject failure.
Edited to add – I use “our” because I’m an American. Just to clear up any potential ambiguity.
I much prefer a fantasy social contract than “money talks”. I agree with aliquot as well. Our system is far from perfect. Sick people getting fucked over shows that your health care system isn’t working.
You know, it could end up like I feel about the flat tax: an interesting proposal, something to look at, but if the entire system were scrapped and made differently, the power brokers before the system was scrapped would get their fingers in it so much that it could end up being worse than what we had.
For the record, I was referring to the Debates forum, and not the Pit. I was just picking on that particular forum. I don’t wish to call people that don’t believe what I do “fucking assholes”, because that’s just silly.
I think we can both agree on what you’re saying here. I would just point out, though, that the difference wasn’t a fifth. It was a difference of 1/4 - 1/5 = 1/20 (or 5%).