# Sicko
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [June 30, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996 "2007-06-30T00:53:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@gatorman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorman)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/1 "2007-06-30T00:53:52Z")
I just watched this movie and I have to say, this is, by far M. Moore’s best work. It truly made a point and, with the exception of the Cuba part in the end, was really moving. I was so and so about socialized care but this movie has definitely leaned my opinion for it.
Please share your comments about the movie itself and what your opinions on the things it presented, not how much you hate M.Moore (not interested).
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### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/2 "2007-06-30T07:04:52Z")
I thought he made lots of good points, but they are things we all know about already. What he didn’t do was propose any kind of solution to things. He’s more about embarassing politicians than he is about any real change.
We all have healthcare stories like the ones presented in that movie. Hell, when I had surgery, the insurance co. wouldn’t pay for the anesthesia. Uh, hello? And my husband has been waiting for months in agony for a procedure that could totally fix him, but insurance won’t cover it because it is non-essential or someshit. My daughter is on a state autism waiver list that is about 12 years long, she’ll probably be about 25 before we see any kind of benefits for her disability.
I am grateful to have money in my family, because if I didn’t there would be a lot of things left untreated and unavailable to us. Unfortunately, most of the US doesn’t have those resources. It is sad.
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### Author:  [@Montgomery0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montgomery0)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/3 "2007-06-30T13:25:17Z")
[QUOTE=Indygrrl]
What he didn’t do was propose any kind of solution to things. He’s more about embarassing politicians than he is about any real change.
[/QUOTE]
I think the point he makes in the movie is that we should pick and choose the best aspects of all other socialized medicine programs and make the “American System,” a socialized national health care system.
While I agree with the notion, it would certainly be better than the for profit insurance companies we deal with today, I don’t know how well it could be implemented in our society. Mr Moore doesn’t go into any detail about the downsides of other nations’ health care system, so I am not totally convinced it is as black and white a situation he proposes.
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### Author:  [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/4 "2007-06-30T14:32:09Z")
Having lived in Toronto for a year and also having visited a hospital in London during a 2-week stint, I can back up Moore’s use of socialized medicine as a model for the US to aspire. I was never asked for anything other than “what is the problem” and was dispensed meds and treatment with the only concern being my well-being.
I am lucky to have BC/BS Personal Choice, but the monthly costs as well as co-pay/deductibles are a huge drain (with 2 kids) and I still pay out the ass for dental and optical co-pays not to mention $20-$30 for office visits and prescriptions.
Moore did a great job pointing out the lack of respect we have for human welfare, how capitalism and greed drive the industry, how politics are involved, and how much better nearly every socialized medicine program is then our system. Sure, there are faults everywhere but I don’t know anyone in Canada who would trade their system for ours, even if they sometimes travel to Buffalo to see a specialist.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/5 "2007-06-30T14:33:23Z")
Instead of socializing medicine, why not enact and enforce laws against deception and fraud? Why not force the insurance companies to pay up on legitimate claims?
ETA:
And before anyone hollars Great Debates, the OP opened this door: “I was so and so about socialized care but this movie has definitely leaned my opinion for it.” I’m advocating against socialized care.
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### Author:  [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/6 "2007-06-30T14:58:16Z")
I think that he should have completely dropped the Cuba stuff at the end, because it seemed like a way to force some humor into what was otherwise a pretty grim and solemn affair; even with the life-ruining layoffs of _Roger and Me_, there’s always the hope of future employment, but when someone croaks because they can’t get health care, that’s it. I think that he should have stuck to that serious and sad tone of the first 1/3.
Great flick in general, though. This is all stuff that those of us on the radical left have been yammering about for years, but maybe this will bring it home to Joe Suburb and his wife.
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### Author:  [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/7 "2007-06-30T15:14:54Z")
I quite liked some stuff that I had never thought about before- but apply’s partially to the the Uk as well- the fact that being in debt, and in your case needing a job simply for healthcare, makes people much less likely to stand up to the government, or to ‘rock the boat’.
People simply become to afraid.
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### Author:  [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/8 "2007-06-30T15:41:55Z")
Here’s the “Sicko” thread that is already in progress:
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425167&highlight=sicko](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425167&highlight=sicko)
Moderators may want to merge these to simplify things here.
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### Author:  [@aliquot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aliquot)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/9 "2007-06-30T15:54:15Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Instead of socializing medicine, why not enact and enforce laws against deception and fraud? Why not force the insurance companies to pay up on legitimate claims?
[/QUOTE]
Did you see the movie mentioned in the OP? If so, then can you speak to what Moore said that you liked/didn’t like? If you didn’t, then how on earth are you going to answer the OP’s topic?
[QUOTE=gatorman]
Please share your comments about the movie itself and what your opinions on the things it presented
[/QUOTE]
I’ve already said my piece in the thread linked to by **randwill**. In brief: The parts of the movie showing how messed up our system is are gold. The parts showing how wonderful other countries have it aren’t as effective, IMO.
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### Author:  [@Montgomery0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montgomery0)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/10 "2007-06-30T17:19:20Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Instead of socializing medicine, why not enact and enforce laws against deception and fraud? Why not force the insurance companies to pay up on legitimate claims?
[/QUOTE]
I’m wondering what laws there are against not-for-profit health insurance companies. If they charge the same as for-profit companies, they can at least do as much, can’t they? Also they become tax exempt and don’t have to do cost slashing to save money for profits. Doesn’t that solve a lot of problems? There would be no communism issue, doctors get paid just as much as they are under the current system and people would stand a better chance to get their care. (As for people who have no insurance, that is another issue, which isn’t covered by the movie.)
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### Author:  [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/11 "2007-07-01T06:04:32Z")
I just got out of a packed theater. Thought it was brilliant.
Everyone in the US has horror stories to tell about our system, both patients and providers. Whenever I’ve had to avail myself of healthcare services in any other country in the world, it has been a humane, caring process totally focused on my needs as a patient.
But not here. It’s fucking sad. And I thought the Cuba segment was particularly effective. Our heroic good samaritans, because they weren’t “covered,” have been left to suffer. And even a US-ostracized banana republic has the humanity to take care of them, no questions asked.
I fear this one could get Moore assassinated.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/12 "2007-07-01T06:11:19Z")
Interestingly, the AP, perhaps sensitive of being called too liberal, [wrote an article](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbsnews.com%2Fstories%2F2007%2F06%2F30%2Fap%2Fhealth%2Fmain3001899.shtml&ei=CkWHRtTrLJy0ggOuxemCCQ&usg=AFQjCNEVAUg5hhU8b2dptlMrtuo7UZABag&sig2=BfewBWei-tEwbAE56y32xw) with some points to rebut some of Moore’s claims and such.
It’s especially interesting because I don’t think I’ve ever seen an article like this from the AP. It seems like an unusual tack. Perhaps they felt all the other angles of the film were already covered.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/13 "2007-07-01T06:36:54Z")
[MTV does it too.](http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1563758/story.jhtml)
But I’m sure this is, in a sense, exactly what Moore wanted; he’s gotten people debating the issue, thinking about it.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/14 "2007-07-01T06:46:05Z")
I don’t get it. Why should I pay good money to listen to propaganda? Now, if Moore paid me $$ to watch the film, I might consider it, but I can’t see why I am supposed to pay him. 😕
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### Author:  [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/15 "2007-07-01T09:53:20Z")
Because you might learn something? Anyway there are other methods.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/16 "2007-07-01T17:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=Sri Theo]
Because you might learn something? Anyway there are other methods.
[/QUOTE]
There are these things called “books” and “newspapers”.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/17 "2007-07-01T18:18:15Z")
[QUOTE=aliquot]
Did you see the movie mentioned in the OP? If so, then can you speak to what Moore said that you liked/didn’t like? If you didn’t, then how on earth are you going to answer the OP’s topic?
[/QUOTE]
Maybe I didn’t see the movie, but I did read the OP. And it said this: “I was so and so about socialized care but this movie has definitely leaned my opinion for it.” I addressed _his opinion._
> [@Montgomery0](#):
>
> I’m wondering what laws there are against not-for-profit health insurance companies.
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there are. As a lobby, insurances companies rule Congress. I didn’t need Michael Moore to tell me that.
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### Author:  [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/18 "2007-07-01T18:28:47Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
I don’t get it. Why should I pay good money to listen to propaganda? Now, if Moore paid me $$ to watch the film, I might consider it, but I can’t see why I am supposed to pay him. 😕
[/QUOTE]
You’ll have to see the movie to understand. If you do see the movie and still don’t think you should have had to pay for it, I will personally reimburse you the cost of the ticket. I extend the same deal to **Liberal** , too.
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### Author:  [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/19 "2007-07-01T18:39:45Z")
[QUOTE=duality72]
You’ll have to see the movie to understand. If you do see the movie and still don’t think you should have had to pay for it, I will personally reimburse you the cost of the ticket. I extend the same deal to **Liberal** , too.
[/QUOTE]
I hear this line every damn time a Michael Moore film comes out, and every damn time I end up seeing the film, and end up feeling exactly how I did beforehand.
Moore’s films are little more than exercises in manipulation and fact-bending. I almost laughed during several ridiculously unbelievable segments in 9/11.
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### Author:  [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sicko/409996/20 "2007-07-01T18:58:24Z")
Just saw it last night.
I think the Cuba part is the most important part of the film.
We as a country (as represented by our government) consider it more important to provide top-quality medical care to those who conspired to attack us (according to that same government) than to their victims and those who worked to alleviate the damage.
Even the rest of the Cuba visit, which was almost assuredly set up by the government, had its point, although not, to me, the one Moore seemed to be trying to make. He showed that a country run by a dictator is more willing to provide this level of care to Americans, _for whatever reason_, than America can be persuaded to provide _under any circumstances_.
That sends a very chilling message. The plain gratitude that showed on the recipients’ faces for even the attention, regardless of the long-term feasability of their treatment, says that our society has allowed some individuals’ lives to become so wretched (and these are our “heroes” in the film, remember), that they welcome the outstretched arm of a blatantly oppressive system simply for the momentary succor it provides.
That speaks of a society on the brink. No American should ever be left in such a position, or our democracy and freedom are in peril.
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