# Side issues to Gun Owner Liability threads **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111 "2021-04-15T21:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/1 "2021-04-15T21:25:10Z")
Then you are concerned about 17 yos being killed in gang wars? Teens killing themselves? Those are the major causes of child gun deaths. Accidentally being killed with the parents gun is not. None of those have anything to do with a "_a child is able to get ahold of a parent’s gun and something tragic happens"._ Accidental deaths through that are rare and not a major cause of child deaths. So, is this just another reason to blame guns? You dont seem to be concerned with other causes of child accidental deaths. It’s all guns, guns, guns. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/3 "2021-04-15T21:48:19Z")
eta to add, I see that discussing suicide, while out is now back in. So then, if we are talking numbers, then it is a older teen getting ahold of their parents gun and killing themselves. That is what the Op wants to put the parents in prison for. _“If a child is able to get ahold of a parent’s gun and something tragic happens,…”_ That certainly is tragic. So then should the parents go to prison if the teen kills themself? Is that what the OP wants answered? In that case, then my answer is NO. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/4 "2021-04-15T22:06:23Z")
Some stats show that others dont. CA actually has tougher guns laws that NY or Mass. But it ranks only 28th in homicide rate. NY is 34th and NJ is 33. Mass does come in nicely at 41st. > **[List of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > This is a list of U.S. states and territories by intentional homicide rate as of 2020. It is typically expressed in units of deaths per 100,000 individuals per year; a homicide rate of 4 in a population of 100,000 would mean 4 murders a year, or 0.004% out of the total. The data has been taken from the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports. > In the United States, the law for murder varies by jurisdiction. In many US jurisdictions there is a hierarchy of a... > **[Giffords Annual Gun Law Scorecard](https://giffords.org/lawcenter/resources/scorecard/#CA)** > > Year after year, the evidence is clear: strong gun laws save lives. Is your state doing enough? But Maine has the very lowest rate of homicide , and gets a F from Giffords. This OpEd piece says there is zero correlation: > **[Opinion | Zero correlation between state homicide rate and state gun laws](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/)** > > Correlation isn't causation -- but here there isn't even any correlation. Mind you, that appears to be biased, still his numbers are his numbers. I would agree that it would seem that the less guns should generally mean less gun tragedies. But Wyoming get a F, and has the most guns per capita and ranks 40th in homicide. To be fair, Arkansas is next and ranks 13th in murders. VA gets a B, has the 5th most guns and ranks 23rd. The numbers are all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/5 "2021-04-15T23:10:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > None of those have anything to do with a " _a child is able to get ahold of a parent’s gun and something tragic happens"._ Teens killing themselves have nothing to do with “a child is able to get ahold of a parent’s gun and something tragic happens”? I fail to see the logic, here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/6 "2021-04-15T23:17:01Z")
Certainly it is. But his other posts seemed to indicate his issue was about small children getting ahold of their parents guns and killing themselves accidentally. That is very rare. And the protection for that is securing your guns if you have kids in the house. There is no defense if you dont do that. Like I said 17 yos being killed in gang wars and Teens killing themselves are the major causes of child gun deaths. But if a older teen bypasses his parents gun locks and kills himself? Should the parents be sent to prison for that? That seems to be what Czarcasm was asking for. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/7 "2021-04-15T23:18:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, is this just another reason to blame guns? You dont seem to be concerned with other causes of child accidental deaths. It’s all guns, guns, guns. I see people quite upset about stories on young children left in cars on hot days. But sure, guns get a lot of complaints. Probably because on the risk vs reward scale, non gun owners think there is a simple and painless solution, don’t have unsecured guns in the home. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/8 "2021-04-15T23:23:44Z")
Ah, an entire thread dedicated to whataboutism. Nice. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/9 "2021-04-15T23:24:14Z")
Absolutely. Unsecured guns in the home with kids around is a very bad and dangerous thing to so- and stupid. It is already illegal in most states. But accidental deaths of small children by guns is a very small issue, numbers wise. Fire, polls, even second hand smoke kill far more kids. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/10 "2021-04-16T03:17:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Absolutely. Unsecured guns in the home with kids around is a very bad and dangerous thing to so- and stupid. It is already illegal in most states. I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Are we saying the same thing? Unsecured guns in the home with kids around, and especially if there is a firearm accident resulting in injury or death, should be considered felony child endangerment? And that the full weight of the law including the possibility of jail time should come down hard? And that “parents have suffered enough” or “putting the parents in jail won’t bring back the child” should not be the punishment? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/11 "2021-04-16T04:29:36Z")
I didnt say “felony child endangerment”- it all depends on the facts and circumstance- what degree of negligence, how bad the injury was, and many other factors. Could be a felony, could be a fine. But certainly if for any just reason a officer finds unsecured guns in a home with kids, the guns should be confiscated pending judicial review, with right of appeal, legal defense, etc. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/12 "2021-04-16T05:20:07Z")
OK, let’s be really specific. 8 year old child finds a loaded gun at home, shoots and kills 6 year old sibling with parents in the other room. Felony child endangerment? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/13 "2021-04-16T05:34:14Z")
Some sort of felony, yes. If the gun was unsecured. But the DA might decide not to bring charges, the judge may be lenient, I am not going to set minimum sentencing. But at least arrest, handcuffs, guns confiscated, the other kid put into CSS or whatever you make call it. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/14 "2021-04-16T21:45:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But at least arrest, handcuffs, guns confiscated, the other kid put into CSS or whatever you make call it. Fair answer. Thanks for the response. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/15 "2021-04-17T13:12:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But certainly if for any just reason a officer finds unsecured guns in a home with kids, the guns should be confiscated pending judicial review, with right of appeal, legal defense, etc. Agreed! How about a weapon in the glove compartment of a car with children present. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/16 "2021-04-17T19:19:11Z")
is the gun secured? Box locked, or trigger locked? However, if kids are secured in back seats, and someone is there to watch gun, that is a maybe. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/17 "2021-04-17T21:18:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Some sort of felony, yes. If the gun was unsecured. But the DA might decide not to bring charges, the judge may be lenient, I am not going to set minimum sentencing. > > But at least arrest, handcuffs, guns confiscated, the other kid put into CSS or whatever you make call it. I think you are giving away too much here, and it may be because of the vague nature of the term “unsecured.” That can mean a lot of things. I don’t think _Heller_ stood for the proposition that you have a constitutional right to have a self defense weapon at the ready, unless you also exercise your other constitutional right to procreate. Of course you take precautions with young kids in the house, but given the dearth of accidental shootings by small children, I think you have given away too much by saying that parents should be prosecuted and children taken away based upon a factless scenario. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/18 "2021-04-18T00:54:19Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Of course you take precautions with young kids in the house, but given the dearth of accidental shootings by small children, I think you have given away too much by saying that parents should be prosecuted and children taken away based upon a factless scenario. The scenario included a dead child caused by a accidental shooting- which i agree is rare. Not just a unsecured gun. And I said arrest, not prosecution. I left it up to the DA to make that decision. The children taken away until a court can rule on it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/19 "2021-04-18T17:35:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The scenario included a dead child caused by a accidental shooting- which i agree is rare. Not just a unsecured gun. > > And I said arrest, not prosecution. I left it up to the DA to make that decision. > > The children taken away until a court can rule on it. I disagree. Without more facts, I would not propose an arrest and the removal of other children, especially with a vague “unsecured” standard. There are huge differences between “good” 17 year old kids and “bad” 8 year olds. There are differences between hunting arms and handguns. There is a difference between a pistol in the nightstand and on a kitchen counter. Most states allow 15 year olds to hunt without any adult supervision. If there is an accident, the parents should be arrested for allowing his or her 15 year old to do what the state explicitly allows? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/20 "2021-04-18T21:11:37Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > There are huge differences between “good” 17 year old kids and “bad” 8 year olds. There are differences between hunting arms and handguns. There is a difference between a pistol in the nightstand and on a kitchen counter. There is a huge difference between “secured” and “un-secured”. 8 year old in the home that grabs a loaded gun and shoots a sibling by definition is an “un-secured” dangerous weapon. Parents don’t get a free pass because little Johnny moved a chair to climb up on the kitchen counter and open up the top cabinent where the Glock is kept out of sight. That is an unsecured dangerous weapon. For another car analogy. If you rear end someone, you are at fault. No discussion. Wierd things can happen but by definition you were travelling too fast or too close to be able to stop in time. The lack of responsibility that a significant portion of firearm owners demonstrate is appalling. I go back to automobiles. You need training, a license, insurance, insurance for uninsured drivers. There are law enforcement officers and speed cameras to help enforce the rules of the road. Most drivers are not jerks (or not often 😉 ), you see a car weaving dangerously then give it a wide birth and maybe call it in. Amber alerts go out and most car drivers keep an eye out for the 2017 silver toyota with plates xyz, and then call it in or even follow the vehicle. On the other hand, firearm owners can get a ghost gun, have zero training, keep it loaded in the bedroom in case they wake up with the need to immediately shoot a sleepwalker, with kids or others around the house. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111/21 "2021-04-18T22:31:32Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I go back to automobiles. You need training, a license, insurance, insurance for uninsured drivers. There are law enforcement officers and speed cameras to help enforce the rules of the road. Most drivers are not jerks (or not often 😉 ), y In some states you need training to buy in gun, but in most states you dont need training to drive a car- you pass a written test, get a permit, pass a driving test, get a license. I mean unless the stuff your Father or buddy does is “training”. You generally need a licenses to carry a gun concealed in public, just like you need a license to drive a car on the public highways. You only need insurance if you drive the car out in public. And there are a LOT of jerk drivers, IMHO. Ghost guns are a boogyman. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/side-issues-to-gun-owner-liability-threads/940111.md?page=2)