# Siegfried: huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503 "2003-10-09T16:41:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/21 "2003-10-10T00:24:36Z")
I doubt the “just trying to help”, but I don’t necessarily doubt the “not trying to kill” – I can see a mildly pissed-tiger being grouchy for a moment. But I’ve also heard of the affection and attachment the cats have to them, especially Roy. Even to the point that they wouldn’t eat when the duo was away and out of the country (and they would call back and have their voices heard conversing in the cats’ earshot to make them feel things are normal). This is only something I heard word of mouth – sorry, no cite. There could be another motivation for Siegfried’s “spin”, though – besides to save the life of the cat. This show of theirs is HUGE business, and proof that this was an attack could certainly end any chances of the show having any sort of future, even if Roy fully recovers. The spin could be an attempt at preservation not only of the cat, but of the business. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/22 "2003-10-10T00:37:44Z")
Even if a tiger bites, that is no reason to put it down. That’s just normal tiger. I watched the video interview with Wynn. It sounds like the tiger got confused for a moment. That’s all it takes with a tiger. As for what the tiger was thinking, I doubt it wanted to kill him – he would certainly be dead. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/23 "2003-10-10T00:38:43Z")
It sounded like spin to me as well. I seriously doubt Roy would be considered a “cub” to the tiger. The success of working with wild animals to some degree is dominance of the trainer and submission of the animal. I don’t know much about wild cats but dogs must believe that you are their alpha male which allows them to behave like we want them to. Both theories of the motive behind the spin may be correct. Not only do they not want the cat put down, they also have a vested interest in maintaining their business. I doubt they could get any old job… “vood djou like fries vid dat?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![dinoboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dinoboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dinoboy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/24 "2003-10-10T00:56:38Z")
Agreed, These guys have a lot to lose: they love their cats, each other, their jobs, their health, etc. This moment on stage changes the public view on this show more than a bit. Although Wynn’s article is interesting, it is still speculation at best, I will conceed that it is educated speculation (and possibly _mostly_ true), but he also has much to lose here, and, though I’d like him to be right, his explanations seem a bit too anthropomorphic for me. Until we can interrogate the cat, it’s all conjecture :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/25 "2003-10-10T01:02:47Z")
I would assume that if the tiger wanted to kill, Roy would have been dead long before anyone could have gotten near him. Hell, think about it, it seems clear to me that the tiger was carrying him with it’s mouth semi open (other wise, it’d be the headless Horn). trying to ‘help’ Roy might be a stretch but it’s no stretch to me that the cat wasn’t going for a “g-roy-o” . ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/26 "2003-10-10T01:10:47Z")
It is possible that the tiger tried to carry Roy the only way it knew how. I can tell you, with virtual certainty, that any adult tiger with a throat hold can kill you at will using less than 10% of its power. So, while I’m not totally buying this pet psychic “tried to carry him like a cub” thing, I can’t reject some equally absurd rationale the tiger had. Carrying him offstage? Since we will never really know, its very fertile ground for speculation. I see socialized tigers as viewing all these “manners” or “tricks” we teach them through their predator eyes. In that sense, I don’t really understand how anyone works with tigers as long as they have without a really serious mauling up until now. Even though, or because, I’ve been around two Siberian tigers I’m more shocked at the number of seemingly domesticated tigers than the ones that bite. Maybe he thought Roy was competing for that woman with the big hair. Stupid tiger. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/27 "2003-10-10T01:18:30Z")
Yeah… Jack Hannah (the zoo guy from back in Carson’s Tonight Show days) in one interview mentioned that something may have spooked the tiger and instinctively led him to “assert dominance” – IOW deliver to the other mammal on the stage a “warning shot” that he didn’t like what was going down, and was gonna do things his way. Which (according to Hannah) in the case of tiger-tiger involves some meaningful biting and vigorous grabbing and shaking by the scruff of the neck, and is rougher than just “play”, since it’s meant to send a message to bugger off. Unfortunately the other mammal on that stage was not in the same weight class with Mantecore. It is one of the risks of wild animals – even if thoroughly trained, you can’t train for every possible combination of external stimuli, and all it takes is one you did not predict and the instinct kicks in. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/28 "2003-10-10T01:43:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\*You know, I never knew that Siegfried’s last name was “Fischbacher.” Now I’ve got Gene Hackman’s voice in my head, yelling “Miss Fischbacherrrrrr!” > \*\* 😛 Funny! ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/29 "2003-10-10T01:47:57Z")
Let’s get Stone Age… Tigers have thought of humans as tasty monkeys until fairly recently. The utilization of stone tools, dogs, and harnessing fire would have changed this equation slightly. The long spear, bow and arrow, followed closely by the rifle has turned the equation upside down of course. Tiger “domestication” is a very recent thing. Also, it is quite clear to anyone who has been around tigers that they never become truly domesticated. I’ve seen tigers begin to get really “excited” when groups of children show up. Eh, no, nobody ever fed them any kids. It’s just natural for predators to size up any other animal. Even the “stupid” alligator is very conscious of the size of everything else. Therefore, what keeps any tiger that reaches adulthood from eating its “master”? Honestly, I don’t know. They _know_ they are bigger and stronger. It’s not a secret. Elephants aren’t predators, it is understandable how sometimes they can be controlled throughout their lives – despite the obvious impossiblity if the elephant disagrees. Which they do on occasion. So, Manticore didn’t want to kill Roy, but clearly was not acting status quo. The only obvious stimulus was the woman Wynn mentions that transfixed Manticore. It so happens that tigers are very particular about certain people. If this tiger found the woman to be attractive, trying to distract the tiger quite likely would have pissed it off. Roy would have known that. First of all, why so close? That’s fucking stupid. Second of all, three cheers for half of stupid that’s in the hospital. Manticore might have tried to hump that woman. I have no idea what to do in that situation, but I would let the tiger finish myself. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/30 "2003-10-10T02:18:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Unless, of course, he’s actually correct. I don’t really have an opinion one way or the other, but the guy has spent his entire life training tigers. It’s just possible he knows what he’s talking about. \*\* According to what Siegfried was saying last night, Roy was the experienced animal trainer of the two, while Siegfried’s training up until they joined together was just magic. That could have just been false modesty on Siggy’s part, though. The ‘dominance assertion’ theory sounds the most plausible to me, but then the biggest felines I’ve ever dealt with were two Siamese cats. I was their bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/31 "2003-10-10T02:31:05Z")
**JRD** , now _that_ I’ll buy. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/32 "2003-10-10T03:44:46Z")
Please note that I said “if.” Didn’t think it was likely, really, but… :shrug: A quick note about them trying to salvage the show: not gonna happen. Show, at least according to a quote from Siegfried in the article I read in the Reno Gazette today, is done. Finito. Not ever coming back. They may find something _else_ to do on the strip, but it won’t be the tiger and lion show anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Computer\_Guru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Computer\_Guru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Computer_Guru)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/33 "2003-10-10T03:51:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Isabelle \* > \*\*It’s hard to say what really happened. The first report sheds the news that Roy was “attacked” and he tried thumping the tiger on the head with the microphone. Maybe the tiger got pissed and DID try to cart him off like a mom tiger would do a cub. > > Alot of animals are loyal and all the clippings that I have seen of Roy and his tigers they sure do seem like they love him to death and it appears he could do just about anything to them without provoking trouble. > > I think PETA went a little too far. They were “faxing” Roy in the hospital for Pete’s sake trying to convince him to retire the cats. > Hello???The guy is in pain. He needed emergency surgery. He is suffering. Do you think he is going to read the fax and make a decison? > > He obviously loves the cat. Loving a pet comes with some denial. \*\* I never listen to PETA. If they want people to listen to them, they are definitely going the wrong way about it. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/34 "2003-10-10T04:25:36Z")
Let’s put PETA aside and discuss how insane it is to assume wild animals can be put on stage to perform for the amusement of humans, without possible tragedy. Tigers are beautiful, endangered, and are not wired to be house cats. If the white tiger is put down, I’ll be sad beyond belief. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/35 "2003-10-10T04:31:07Z")
Steve Wynn’s explanation, if he’s reporting the facts correctly, and especially if Montecore acted the way he described after he released Roy (showing no further aggression or agitation, and in fact proceeding under his own power and volition to his cage,) to be eminently reasonable. Large cats generally rely on one of two killing techniques: 1) latch onto the neck and snap the head from side to side, thereby shattering the prey’s neck and probably separating Roy’s head from the rest of his body, resulting in a big ol’ mess, or 2) closing the teeth around the neck, severing the carotid artery/collapsing the windpipe. Montecore did neither of these things. In fact, it seems that the severing of the vertebral artery was an incidental result of the cat trying to pick Roy up by the back (the scruff) of the neck. If Montecore had wanted Roy dead, he would be irrevocably, irreparably, thoroughly dead right now. It would have happened in a heartbeat, and there would not have been a goddamned thing anyone could have done about it. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/36 "2003-10-10T04:43:43Z")
They would make _great_ house cats if humans were 15 feet tall and 2000 pounds. One swat is all it takes. Boom, you’re on the ground. Bite. Dead. Tigers kill much larger prey than humans in the wild. A tiger could bite your head off, instantly. The largest strongest human has no chance without a weapon of some kind. The tiger might be thinking “Get up, chase me. Your turn.” As stated before by JRD, we are way out of our weight class. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/37 "2003-10-10T04:44:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shirley Ujest \* > \*\*Off topic, but I cannot stop myself. > > There have been jokes, innuendoes and implications over the years about Siegfriend and Roy’s status as a couple. ( My favorite was a joke about " Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon is a new position by Seigfried and Roy" at the Oscars) > > Have they ever come out of the closet? \*\* I think they have. The tiger was just trying to drag Roy back in. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/38 "2003-10-10T04:47:08Z")
I sure as hell wouldn’t trust my 4-pound Porkchop-kitty if I weighed a third as much as she does. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/39 "2003-10-10T07:04:09Z")
What Wynn says seems plausible enough to me…far more credible then the sensationalism of your average journalist when it comes to animal attacks, alleged or otherwise, anyways, imo. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503/40 "2003-10-10T07:33:32Z")
I’m just waiting for the “ripped from the headlines” episode of _CSI_. “Well, Gris, what do you think?” “Well, there’s some larva on him, suggesting death occured 24 hours ago, but I think these giant gashes are where we should focus our interest.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/siegfried-huh/206503.md?page=3)