# sigh...now the NY Times can't even master the past participle?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [July 3, 2008, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164 "2008-07-03T08:15:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@tesseract](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tesseract)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/1 "2008-07-03T08:15:40Z")
From [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/sports/olympics/03swim.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) story: As Phelps Sulks, His Runner-Up Celebrates
> [@](#):
>
> His 47.92 clocking would have broken the American record had he swam it one day earlier; instead, it left him third behind Garrett Weber-Gale (47.78) and Jason Lezak (48.15), who lowered the mark in consecutive heats before Phelps swam.
I can deal with it when people in the supermarket don’t use it right – and yeah, it’s not that important, in the whole scheme of things – compared to Darfur, say, or the economy – but the NY Times? C’mon…
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### Author:  [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/2 "2008-07-03T09:13:54Z")
First one should be “swum”, second should remain “swam”? Am I right?
To be honest, that has always confused me; I’m not surprised if it confounds others too.
And the more people do it wrong, the more it becomes the new standard.
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### Author:  [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/3 "2008-07-03T12:40:08Z")
I’d be happy if the folks at my local paper (the _Journal-Constitution_, Atlanta’s one and only major daily paper) would just stop using dangling modifiers.
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### Author:  [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/4 "2008-07-03T14:09:23Z")
[QUOTE=GuanoLad]
First one should be “swum”, second should remain “swam”? Am I right?
[/QUOTE]
Are you joking? No, apparently not. Apparently, some people use ‘swum’ and have even put it in a few dictionaries. I’ve never heard or used it once in my entire life, but there it is.
> [@](#):
>
> And the more people do it wrong, the more it becomes the new standard.
This, on the other hand, makes perfect sense.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/5 "2008-07-03T15:40:36Z")
Is the complaint about “swam” or about “his clocking”?
Sailboat
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### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/6 "2008-07-03T15:51:49Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin]
I’d be happy if the folks at my local paper (the _Journal-Constitution_, Atlanta’s one and only major daily paper) would just stop using dangling modifiers.
[/QUOTE]
After swimming, the clock displayed a new record.
Or is that a misplaced modifier?
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### Author:  [@E.Thorp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E.Thorp)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/7 "2008-07-03T15:54:54Z")
Reminds me of people I knew in college who would say things like “I haven’t drank since Tuesday.”
Who’d’a thunk it?
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/8 "2008-07-03T15:56:54Z")
[QUOTE=GuanoLad]
And the more people do it wrong, the more it becomes the new standard.
[/QUOTE]
Thank God for “living” languages. Not literate? Wait a bit and you will be, with a dictionary to prove it. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/9 "2008-07-03T16:40:49Z")
> [@](#):
>
> His 47.92 clocking would have broken the American record had he swam it one day earlier; instead, it left him third behind Garrett Weber-Gale (47.78) and Jason Lezak (48.15), who lowered the mark in consecutive heats before Phelps swam.
I would have avoided the past participle in favor of a rewrite:
“His time of 47.92 would have broken the American record even one day earlier. Instead, it left him third…” etc.
Why use a complicated structure when a simpler one will do, and do better?
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### Author:  [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/10 "2008-07-03T16:54:56Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
Thank God for “living” languages. Not literate? Wait a bit and you will be, with a dictionary to prove it. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
I just checked the OED and [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), and neither of them gives a definition for “literate” that means “able to perfectly use grammar.”
So your comment doesn’t make sense yet, but I’m sure if you wait a few years we’ll be able to understand you.
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### Author:  [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/11 "2008-07-03T16:59:47Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth]
Are you joking? No, apparently not. Apparently, some people use ‘swum’ and have even put it in a few dictionaries. I’ve never heard or used it once in my entire life, but there it is.
[/QUOTE]
And with all your snarky sarcasm, you couldn’t be bothered to maybe explain what the problem is, since you just can’t beLIEVE that someone didn’t know? :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/12 "2008-07-03T17:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=Interrobang!?]
I just checked the OED and [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), and neither of them gives a definition for “literate” that means “able to perfectly use grammar.”
So your comment doesn’t make sense yet, but I’m sure if you wait a few years we’ll be able to understand you.
[/QUOTE]
You’re absolutely right. Please, by all means, continue fighting the good fight. I for one cannot wait until “LOL” is acceptable usage everywhere.
Or, just perhaps, we can criticize people who do not use grammar and punctuation correctly in the hopes that we can teach them the correct usage, therefore forestalling the inevitable devolution of English and submitting to idiocy.
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### Author:  [@tesseract](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tesseract)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/13 "2008-07-03T19:12:17Z")
[QUOTE=GuanoLad]
First one should be “swum”, second should remain “swam”? Am I right?
To be honest, that has always confused me; I’m not surprised if it confounds others too.
And the more people do it wrong, the more it becomes the new standard.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the first one should be swum. Maybe I shoulda noted that. Like I say, when Joe Blow doesn’t always get the rules right, that’s one thing. But for those who get to write stories for the FRONT PAGE of the NY Times, shouldn’t a mastery of all the basic rules sort of be a prerequisite?
Am I getting whoosed by **Zweisamkeit,** or does he really think there’s no such thing as swum? I don’t get that comment…
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### Author:  [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/14 "2008-07-03T19:18:36Z")
I would hazard a guess that some editor rewrote the sentence in order to shorten it and the tenses went wrong.
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### Author:  [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/15 "2008-07-03T19:21:27Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF]
You’re absolutely right. Please, by all means, continue fighting the good fight. I for one cannot wait until “LOL” is acceptable usage everywhere.
Or, just perhaps, we can criticize people who do not use grammar and punctuation correctly in the hopes that we can teach them the correct usage, therefore forestalling the inevitable devolution of English and submitting to idiocy.
[/QUOTE]
As happened to Latin, I believe, necessitating the First Council of Turin to sit down and meticulously plan out the Romance languages in order to salvage western Europe from gibbering incomprehension. It was a tough transition into the restoration of communication, but, of course, as it happened, none could complain.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/16 "2008-07-03T19:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth]
Are you joking? No, apparently not. Apparently, some people use ‘swum’ and have even put it in a few dictionaries. I’ve never heard or used it once in my entire life, but there it is.
[/QUOTE]
Um, “swum” _is_ the past participle for the verb “to swim.” This isn’t anything recent, so far as I know. I had always been taught swim/swam/swum, and the standardized tests on English I could find online have “swum” as the past participle. ([This one, for example, Answer 7.](http://books.google.com/books?id=dE-wmsLSklUC&pg=PT82&lpg=PT82&dq=past+participle+%22to+swim%22+swam+swum&source=web&ots=cyX8oeKRXM&sig=1z6QIFgxH4iQls82qcNckn6ecO0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result)) If you are following formal English grammar, “swum” is indeed the correct verb in the first sentence, not “swam.”
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/17 "2008-07-03T20:05:29Z")
More citations:
[The Columbia Guide to Standard American English, 1993](http://www.bartleby.com/68/83/5883.html)
> [@](#):
>
> swim (v.)
>
> The principal parts of this strong verb are swim, swam, swum.
[American Heritage English Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, 2000](http://www.bartleby.com/61/25/S0952500.html)
> [@](#):
>
> swum
>
> VERB: Past participle of swim.
If that’s too modern for you, we have [The American Language, 1921](http://www.bartleby.com/185/40.html) by H.L. Mencken.
> [@](#):
>
> swim swam swum
(the second reference for “swum” on that page).
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### Author:  [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/18 "2008-07-03T20:26:53Z")
[QUOTE=tesseract]
Yeah, the first one should be swum. Maybe I shoulda noted that. Like I say, when Joe Blow doesn’t always get the rules right, that’s one thing. But for those who get to write stories for the FRONT PAGE of the NY Times, shouldn’t a mastery of all the basic rules sort of be a prerequisite?
Am I getting whoosed by **Zweisamkeit,** or does he really think there’s no such thing as swum? I don’t get that comment…
[/QUOTE]
(I’m a she). A sort of whoosh, I guess? I know swim/swam/swum. I was a writing tutor at my uni and no one had problems with ‘swum’ (used correctly). I was also really rankled at **Derleth’s** snotty attitude while not only (if I was reading him correctly, and since **pulykamell** says what I was thinking about ‘swum’, I think I am) being wrong, but also not even providing how he would think he was right.
I love parenthetical asides, if you can’t tell. 😉
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### Author:  [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/19 "2008-07-03T21:43:12Z")
Psst. Nobody tell the OP that I get paid to write in English, and I’ve never ever had any instruction in English grammar.
I don’t even know what a past participle _is_!
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-now-the-ny-times-cant-even-master-the-past-participle/455164/20 "2008-07-03T21:51:52Z")
[QUOTE=Barbarian]
Psst. Nobody tell the OP that I get paid to write in English, and I’ve never ever had any instruction in English grammar.
I don’t even know what a past participle _is_!
[/QUOTE]
That’s fine, but your copy editors or somebody up the chain should know, or at least how its used in formal writing. From my experience, quite often the best writers/reporters are not necessarily very good in always getting grammar or spelling right, but they have other, more important skills (reporting, interviewing, storytelling, imagination, etc.) that earns them that paycheck. That’s why we hire copy editors and proofreaders.
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