# \*sigh\* Obama is not a "racist" (and neither is Rev. Wright, really) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547 "2008-04-01T16:38:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/1 "2008-04-01T16:38:56Z")
Inspired by [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9632845&postcount=49) by **Martin Hyde,** particularly this passage: > [@](#): > > With Obama, I don’t need to google anything at all. I can just point out he’s a long time member of a racist organization–and I can say I don’t trust the man. I think he’s a black man with a sense of entitlement that hopes to “put one over on whitey” by getting elected to the Presidency where he will proceed to implement some of the most horrifying programs of wealth redistribution from white to black we’ve ever seen. I think most middle class Americans realize such programs are anathema to their well being and I hope they will vote against a racist like Obama. This makes even less sense than [calling Hillary Clinton a “socialist.”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=453937) But, silly as it is, it appears to be an emergent meme that will be around until November (longer, if Obama wins the WH), so we’d better gear up to fight it now. 1. The [Trinity United Church of Christ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_United_Church_of_Christ) is not a racist organization. It is a distinctly African-American church, but 11:00 Sunday morning remains the most segregated hour in America, as we all know, and to which few seriously object. 2. [Reverend Wright](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright) has made some **foolish** public statements, to be sure, reflecting a certain level of black collective persecution-mania that is entirely understandable in historical context; but nothing he’s been quoted as saying since this flap broke out can be construed as implying that white people as such are inferior, or evil, or undesirable, or anything else a racist might say. (Bashing the white American **power structure** as evil is a very different matter, and much more defensible; it is a fact that America has a definite overclass and only whites are allowed full membership – even Justice Clarence Thomas is an honorary member only, and Obama will never be a member at all, not even if he serves the two most successful presidential terms in American history.) 3. Insofar as the “black man with a sense of entitlement” mindset really exists at all in the African-American community, Obama would have to have been raised in that community to internalize it, and he wasn’t; he merely married into it. He never even had a black stepdad. 4. There is absolutely nothing in Obama’s background, career or rhetoric to suggest he would put through any program of “wealth redistribution.” More’s the pity. (And why would such a redistribution be “from white to black,” anyway? Most **poor** Americans are **white.)** ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/2 "2008-04-01T16:46:49Z")
Agreed. I’m currently arguing this very subject with someone on another message board. It’s hopeless, as near as I can tell- the ones who believe this particular idea can’t be swayed by any logical arguments… they don’t even want to hear the arguments. It’s very frustrating. And even IF Wright could be considered to be racist, that _shouldn’t_ affect Obama in the slightest. I grew up in a fairly religious family, and I’m now an atheist. The lengths that some people will go to in order to link anything bad to Obama is kind of sad- first it was that his father was a Muslim, then it was that his wife “hates America”, and now it’s that his pastor is racist. It’s all innuendo. As for Obama, himself, being racist… he’s half-white, for cryin’ out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/3 "2008-04-01T16:47:05Z")
Cosign. The refrain from white conservatives that Jeremiah Wright said anything racist is tiresome and false. Any suggestion that Obama himself is racist is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/4 "2008-04-01T16:47:19Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 1. The [Trinity United Church of Christ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_United_Church_of_Christ) is not a racist organization. It is a distinctly African-American church, but 11:00 Sunday morning remains the most segregated hour in America, as we all know, and to which few seriously object. [/QUOTE] I object to that. I would not want to attend a church that excluded people, and especially since I converted to Catholicism I have attended churches and masses that for the most part are models of integration. My parish in Arlington was once predominantly black, my current one holds masses in English, Spanish and Portuguese. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/5 "2008-04-01T16:51:47Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] (Bashing the white American **power structure** as evil is a very different matter, and much more defensible; it is a fact that America has a definite overclass and only whites are allowed full membership – even Justice Clarence Thomas is an honorary member only, and Obama will never be a member at all, not even if he serves the two most successful presidential terms in American history.) [/QUOTE] What makes this a fact, and not just your opinion? How is Clarence Thomas an “honorary member of the white overclass” and Barack Obama will never be? Why are only whites allowed full membership? Is it somewhere in the bylaws? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/6 "2008-04-01T16:57:01Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I object to that. I would not want to attend a church that excluded people, and especially since I converted to Catholicism I have attended churches and masses that for the most part are models of integration. My parish in Arlington was once predominantly black, my current one holds masses in English, Spanish and Portuguese. [/QUOTE] The Trinity Church does not exclude anyone. The “segregation” spoken of in these instances is _de facto_, not deliberate (and is a relic of an era when blacks were not _permitted_ to worship with whites, so it’s kind of specious to then turn around accuse _them_ of being exclusionary). Obama’s particular congregation happens to be majority black, but white people can and do attend. They aren’t “excluded.” Obama’s _denomination_ is 99% white, by the way. If it’s that important to you to see diversity in every particular congregation, I guess you could agitate for forced busing of white worshipers into black neighborhoods or something. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/7 "2008-04-01T16:58:51Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] What makes this a fact, and not just your opinion? How is Clarence Thomas an “honorary member of the white overclass” and Barack Obama will never be? Why are only whites allowed full membership? Is it somewhere in the bylaws? [/QUOTE] Even if this opinion is too pessimistic (and I believe that it is), it’s not _racist_, just pessimistic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/8 "2008-04-01T17:05:11Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] What makes this a fact, and not just your opinion? How is Clarence Thomas an “honorary member of the white overclass” and Barack Obama will never be? Why are only whites allowed full membership? Is it somewhere in the bylaws? [/QUOTE] [The white overclass described.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7536817&postcount=12) Its racial character is not immutable – it has **Jews** in it now, which would have been unthinkable in 1960 – but since its existence as a class depends in part on intraclass intermarriage there are some obvious obstacles there. There are also separate black and Latino overclasses, which are merely dependent auxiliaries of the white overclass. That’s Lind’s thesis, anyway, and he’s got plenty of good arguments to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/9 "2008-04-01T17:06:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The Trinity Church does not exclude anyone. [/QUOTE] Uh huh. Well, the Mormons didn’t really exclude black people prior to 1978 either - they just made it clear that certain levels of membership, so to speak, weren’t open to them. Faced with such, it isn’t surprising that few blacks joined, or that few do today. How welcome would a white person feel at a church where their country was compared with the Klan? Or where some blacks were explicitly called Toms for cooperating with a white power structure? I’ve been to plenty of black churches where I was made to feel quite welcome - my leading petty officer at one of my commands was an ordained minister and led his own gospel services. I never had a problem joining him - but from what I’ve seen, I would have lots of issues joining Reverend Wright. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/10 "2008-04-01T17:06:59Z")
I’m just putting the OP on notice (since he cited comments of mine from another thread as the impetus for this one) that I won’t be participating in this particular thread. No one should confuse that for fear of open debate. I feel the current Pit thread is the entirely appropriate venue for this discussion, and I do not want to over-commit myself to arguing identical things in roughly identical threads. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/11 "2008-04-01T17:07:23Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The “segregation” spoken of in these instances is _de facto_, not deliberate (and is a relic of an era when blacks were not _permitted_ to worship with whites, so it’s kind of specious to then turn around accuse _them_ of being exclusionary). [/QUOTE] It’s also a relic of an era when the church was the only social institution in which blacks were allowed to participate, and the only social institution of their own that blacks were allowed to have. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/12 "2008-04-01T17:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I object to that. I would not want to attend a church that excluded people, and especially since I converted to Catholicism I have attended churches and masses that for the most part are models of integration. My parish in Arlington was once predominantly black, my current one holds masses in English, Spanish and Portuguese. [/QUOTE] Trinity United **does not exclude people**. > [@](#): > > [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-oped0326trinitymar26,0,2358398,print.story](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-oped0326trinitymar26,0,2358398,print.story) > > . . . > > I have been a member of Trinity, a church with an almost entirely African-American congregation, for more than 25 years. **I am, however, a white male.** From a decidedly different perspective than most Trinitarians, I have heard Wright preach about racial inequality many times, in unvarnished and passionate terms. > > . . . > > It also is important that we not let media coverage and political gamesmanship isolate selected remarks by Wright to the exclusion of anything else that might define him more accurately and completely. > > I find it very troubling that we have distilled Wright’s 35-year ministry to a few phrases; no context whatsoever has been offered or explored. > > I do have a bit of personal context. About 26 years ago, I became engaged to my wife, an African-American. She was at that time and remains a member of Trinity. Somewhere between the ring and the altar, my wife had second thoughts and broke off the engagement. Her decision was grounded in race: So committed to black causes, the daughter of parents subjected to unthinkable prejudice over the years, an “up-and-coming” leader in the young black community, how could she marry a white man? > > Rev. Wright, whom I had met only in passing at the time and who was equally if not more outspoken about “black” issues than he is today, somehow found out about my wife’s decision. He called and asked her to “drop everything” and meet with him at Trinity. He spent four hours explaining his reaction to her decision. **Racial divisions were unacceptable, he said, no matter how great or prolonged the pain that caused them. God would not want us to assess or make decisions about people based on race.** The world could make progress on issues of race only if people were prepared to break down barriers that were much easier to let stand. > > Rev. Wright was pretty persuasive; he presided over our wedding a few months later. In the years since, I have watched in utter awe as Wright has overseen and constructed a support system for thousands in need on the South Side that is far more impressive and effective than any governmental program possibly could approach. **And never in my life have I been welcomed more warmly and sincerely than at Trinity. Never.** > > . . . [Reverend Jane Fisler-Hoffman](http://truthabouttrinity.blogspot.com/2008/03/rev-jane-fisler-hoffman.html), white member of Trinity United, talks about the history of Trinity United and her participation and membership. Partial transcript: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Jane Fisler-Hoffman** > > This church is a love-filled church for _all people_. Ministers all around the United Church of Christ, European-American, African-American and other denominations, bring people from their churches to Trinity because the worship is so powerful, the preaching is so meaningful and prophetic. We all look to Trinity as an example of really Christ-centered, mission-hearted church. It’s a great church. This is a church that reaches out to everybody, locally, around the world, all colors, and just wants to share the gospel and the good news of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/13 "2008-04-01T17:08:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I object to that. I would not want to attend a church that excluded people, and especially since I converted to Catholicism I have attended churches and masses that for the most part are models of integration. My parish in Arlington was once predominantly black, my current one holds masses in English, Spanish and Portuguese. [/QUOTE] Just to amplify on what **Diogenes** noted, there is a good video at YouTube by a white woman who is also a minister in that denomination I believe explaining why she chose to go to the particular church that Obama goes to and how welcoming she found it to be. Unfortunately, my attempt to find this video again was unsuccessful…Maybe someone with better YouTube-Fu would have more luck. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/14 "2008-04-01T17:08:56Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I feel the current Pit thread is the entirely appropriate venue for this discussion, and I do not want to over-commit myself to arguing identical things in roughly identical threads. [/QUOTE] No it is not. That pit thread is about John McCain. And if you DO continue this hijack in it, I WILL have it shut down so you won’t have it as a vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/15 "2008-04-01T17:11:01Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Even if this opinion is too pessimistic (and I believe that it is), it’s not _racist_, just pessimistic. [/QUOTE] If you claim, though, that there’s an organized conspiracy by the government, though, to kill off black people, and when you start condemning America as evil and a nation deserving of eternal damnation, that’s not a racist attitude, exactly, but it is a remarkably troubling one, especially for someone who wants to be president of the US and head of that very government. And when you see that the Rev. Wright has those opinions, and that Obama is so close to him, it raises the question, to what extent does Obama share his friend and mentor’s opinions. Now, Obama has said he doesn’t share those opinions, and personally I believe him, but I don’think there’s anything wrong with asking the question. It’s the old saying, “You lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.” ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/16 "2008-04-01T17:21:29Z")
[QUOTE=jshore] Just to amplify on what **Diogenes** noted, there is a good video at YouTube by a white woman who is also a minister in that denomination I believe explaining why she chose to go to the particular church that Obama goes to and how welcoming she found it to be. Unfortunately, my attempt to find this video again was unsuccessful…Maybe someone with better YouTube-Fu would have more luck. [/QUOTE] See Post #12 just above. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/17 "2008-04-01T17:22:02Z")
You have to keep a couple of things in mind. First, the people labeling Rev. Wright a racist come from the school of thought that says that calling a white man a cracker is the same as calling a black man a nigger. They don’t subscribe the importance of historical context or a definition of racism that goes deeper than the simple use of a racial slur or a stereotype based on race. So when Rev. Wright calls Italians “garlic noses,” that language makes Wright a racist, regardless of any context, any power behind the phrase “garlic nose,” etc. Second, people like simple answers. The obvious double standard with regard to Hagee and the like makes it clear that this isn’t about rationality. It’s about something else. So reasoning with these people is pretty futile. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/18 "2008-04-01T17:32:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [The white overclass described.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7536817&postcount=12) Its racial character is not immutable – it has **Jews** in it now, which would have been unthinkable in 1960 – but since its existence as a class depends in part on intraclass intermarriage there are some obvious obstacles there. There are also separate black and Latino overclasses, which are merely dependent auxiliaries of the white overclass. That’s Lind’s thesis, anyway, and he’s got plenty of good arguments to back it up. [/QUOTE] But that’s simply winning by definition. Obviously Obama can never be part of the white overclass, since he isn’t white. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a part of a putative “overclass”. Can any putative overclass that doesn’t include Senators, congressmen, governors, fortune 500 CEOs, presidents, cabinet members, supreme court justices and so forth really be called an “overclass”? If black Senators and governors aren’t part of the overclass, then there is no such thing as an overclass. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/19 "2008-04-01T17:36:08Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Uh huh. Well, the Mormons didn’t really exclude black people prior to 1978 either - they just made it clear that certain levels of membership, so to speak, weren’t open to them. Faced with such, it isn’t surprising that few blacks joined, or that few do today.] [/quote] Are you kidding me with this stupid comparison? > [@](#): > > How welcome would a white person feel at a church where their country was compared with the Klan? Or where some blacks were explicitly called Toms for cooperating with a white power structure? I’m white and I would agree with both sentiments. > [@](#): > > I’ve been to plenty of black churches where I was made to feel quite welcome - my leading petty officer at one of my commands was an ordained minister and led his own gospel services. I never had a problem joining him - but from what I’ve seen, I would have lots of issues joining Reverend Wright. I’m very impressed that you have no problem worshiping with black people, but since no one accused you of having otherwise senim,ents, it’s not particularly relevant. Your insinuation is that Trinity would exclude YOU, and you have provided no evidence to support such a conclusion. The fact is that some white people DO attend that church and there is no evidence that they have been made to feel unwelcome or that Wright himself has ever behaved discourteously towards white people in general (or said anything racist). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/20 "2008-04-01T17:44:17Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] First, the people labeling Rev. Wright a racist come from the school of thought that says that calling a white man a cracker is the same as calling a black man a nigger. [/QUOTE] Just because no one has came up with such a term doesn’t mean there isn’t still time. Do you subscribe to the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis? Why can non-whites not harbor attitudes that are just as racist as whites simply because they haven’t come up with terms for them yet? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547.md?page=2)