# \*sigh\* Obama is not a "racist" (and neither is Rev. Wright, really) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 1, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547 "2008-04-01T16:38:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/41 "2008-04-01T18:46:52Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] “People like Wright”, whose 20 years of sermons and preaching you’ve heard about 3 minutes of over and over and apparently consider that 3 minutes the gist of his entire career. [/QUOTE] No. I had some familiarity with black liberation theology before this mess, having followed the Cornel West row with Lawrence Summers in particular. The preaching of Wright seemed instantly familiar after that. I haven’t in these threads been prepared to judge Wright on the basis of soundbites, but I recognize that these soundbites aren’t atypical, but representative. The man isn’t controversial for nothing, and a young and somewhat rootless Barack Obama would have found his message very compelling - by his own admission. I have stated before that I understand this - in this period Obama was trying to connect with his black identity, and whatever Wright is, he is indeed black. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/42 "2008-04-01T18:51:25Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Black Liberation Theology is a racist ideology. There are no two ways around it. From James Cone who Rev. Wright cited on Hannity and Colmes: **Brainglutton** Rev. Wright is CERTAINLY a racist. Obama maybe not. [/QUOTE] We’re getting several degrees of separation away from Obama here, but 1.) those quotations are not verifiably as having been said by Cone and are probably spurious and 2.) Were certainly not said by Wright, so they’re irrelevant to the conversation. Speaking of Hannity and Colmes, I find it rather ironic that Sean Hannity has been Fox’s leading goon on the Jeremiah Wright attacks since he (Sean Hannity) [once supported a White Nationalist, White Supremacist for Congress](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/4/03216/78601). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/43 "2008-04-01T18:53:14Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] How is one supposed to take the bit about God destroying the white enemy? [/quote] That’s from the **unverified** quote. The other (and where did you get it, BTW?) says: > [@](#): > > Christ is black therefore not because of some cultural or psychological need of black people, but because and only because Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the black are, disclosing that he is with them enduring humiliation and pain and transforming oppressed slaves into liberating servants. Which does **not** merit your characterization: [QUOTE=mswas] Applying one’s own skin color to Christ is most certainly racist and is one of the most common forms of Christian heresy. IE, to identify your tribe as the chosen people as opposed to others. [/QUOTE] It doesn’t. **Read it again.** (BTW, I’m familiar with a lot of [Christian heresies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_heresies) and I don’t see how what you’re describing ranks as “one of the most common forms.”) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/44 "2008-04-01T18:53:16Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] How is one supposed to take the bit about God destroying the white enemy? [/quote] Prove Cone said it. Prove Wright believes it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/45 "2008-04-01T18:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Nope. Racism is a problem. But people like Wright don’t help the problem, they make it a hell of a lot worse. [/QUOTE] But even if we stipulate that people like Wright don’t help, and actually make the problem worse, that doesn’t therefore mean that Wright is a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/46 "2008-04-01T18:56:48Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] No. I had some familiarity with black liberation theology before this mess, having followed the Cornel West row with Lawrence Summers in particular. The preaching of Wright seemed instantly familiar after that. [/quote] All you know about the preaching of Wright is a 90 seconds of carfeully selected quotes edited together and played in an infinite loop on Fox News. > [@](#): > > I haven’t in these threads been prepared to judge Wright on the basis of soundbites, but I recognize that these soundbites aren’t atypical, but representative. Not atypical of _what_? Representative of _what_? > [@](#): > > The man isn’t controversial for nothing I beg to differ., ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/47 "2008-04-01T18:57:40Z")
I don’t think many people who have paid any attention to the primary process would consider Obama a racist. I think the question is how much does he wrap himself in afro-centrism. I think this is the problem with his association with Wright. I think his wife doesn’t help him in this regard. There was her statement about her not previously being proud of her country. And her college thesis, \*Princeton-Educated Blacks and the Black Community \*tend to put the Obamas in that apparent mindset. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with black studies, but I think the fact is that people want a President that represents all of them. Not one who they might feel has a race-based agenda. So, while I do not think Obama to be a racist, given his liberal politics and Wright and his wife, I do get the impression that he will lead as a Black President more than a President who just happens to be black. And that is one reason he will lose if he gets the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/48 "2008-04-01T18:59:41Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I don’t think many people who have paid any attention to the primary process would consider Obama a racist. I think the question is how much does he wrap himself in afro-centrism. I think this is the problem with his association with Wright. I think his wife doesn’t help him in this regard. There was her statement about her not previously being proud of her country. And her college thesis, \*Princeton-Educated Blacks and the Black Community \*tend to put the Obamas in that apparent mindset. Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with black studies, but I think the fact is that people want a President that represents all of them. Not one who they might feel has a race-based agenda. So, while I do not think Obama to be a racist, given his liberal politics and Wright and his wife, I do get the impression that he will lead as a Black President more than a President who just happens to be black. And that is one reason he will lose if he gets the nomination. [/QUOTE] But, absolutely nothing we know about Obama-the-politician suggests he **has** a “race-based agenda.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/49 "2008-04-01T19:02:56Z")
Before we get too far afield, I’d still ove to see some evidence that Jeremiah Wright holds any racist or anti-white views. Even assuming, hypothetically, that Jeremiah Wright ever quoted from or attributed personal inspiration to a person who ever himself expressed racist attitudes, it still does not prove Wright himself is a racist. Thomas Jefferson was a racist. Many politicians qute Thomas Jefferson or refer to him as an inspiration. Are all those people therefore racists? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/50 "2008-04-01T19:03:53Z")
**BrainGlutton** From the Spengler article in question. Here is the footnote. > [@](#): > > ]1. See William R Jones, “Divine Racism: The Unacknowledged Threshold Issue for Black Theology”, in African-American Religious Thought: An Anthology, ed Cornel West and Eddie Glaube (Westminster John Knox Press). As for heresies. One of the cornerstones of the Christian religion is universalism, IE that Jesus isn’t for your tribe. This can be pointed out through the ‘I come not to bring peace but a sword, turn Brother against Sister’ etc… in the book of Matthew. To say that Christ is for YOUR tribe, is heretical. It doesn’t come under the category of heresies that are specifically declared or put down because it is so common. Many tribes and people have tried to paganize the gospels in such a way as it defines their particular people as ‘the chosen people’. In my opinion the Catholic Church is the Mother of all Paganistic Heretical misappropriations of the gospel for political purposes, but in the end all of these things serve a purpose as the mission of Christ is a process of conversion, not something that suddenly happens. One day you get your head dunked under the water and suddenly you and all your pals are universally tolerant. However, it is retrogressive to think that Christ somehow favors your people over other peoples. Christ was there to save ALL peoples, not black people, not white people, not Jews, not Europeans. That being said, I still interpret the first quotation as such, that he is trying to ethnicize the gospel, which is in and of itself both heretical and racist. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/51 "2008-04-01T19:05:15Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Before we get too far afield, I’d still ove to see some evidence that Jeremiah Wright holds any racist or anti-white views. Even assuming, hypothetically, that Jeremiah Wright ever quoted from or attributed personal inspiration to a person who ever himself expressed racist attitudes, it still does not prove Wright himself is a racist. Thomas Jefferson was a racist. Many politicians qute Thomas Jefferson or refer to him as an inspiration. Are all those people therefore racists? [/QUOTE] Thomas Jefferson never took pride in his racism, or said that it was something to be emulated. He was so radical that he thought it was unfair influence for the older generation to impose it’s views upon successive generations. That is hardly the same as saying, “Christ favors black people over white people.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/52 "2008-04-01T19:06:13Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But, absolutely nothing we know about Obama-the-politician suggests he **has** a “race-based agenda.” [/QUOTE] Don’t you listen to Pat Buchanan? If a black person has any actual interest in his African heritage or his heritage of slavery and second-class citizenship, he has a race-based agenda. He or she is supposed to think like a white man and considers him or herself lucky for the slavery their ancestors endured because it brought them to this glorious American paradise, where they became full citizens (after several hundred years, a major schismatic war, and another century of violence, oppression and muttered excuses and misdirection by the white people they’re supposed to be so grateful to). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/53 "2008-04-01T19:06:47Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But, absolutely nothing we know about Obama-the-politician suggests he **has** a “race-based agenda.” [/QUOTE] And I only **wish** I could say with any confidence that he really has a **class** -based agenda. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/54 "2008-04-01T19:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Thomas Jefferson was a racist. Many politicians qute Thomas Jefferson or refer to him as an inspiration. Are all those people therefore racists? [/QUOTE] I don’t see how attempting to contort the meaning of “racist” is helpful to the discussion in any way. You can correctly describe Jefferson as a “racist”. But you know it has little to do with what is meant when someone in today’s society is considered a racist. Or you should. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/55 "2008-04-01T19:07:51Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Thomas Jefferson never took pride in his racism, or said that it was something to be emulated. He was so radical that he thought it was unfair influence for the older generation to impose it’s views upon successive generations. That is hardly the same as saying, “Christ favors black people over white people.” [/QUOTE] No. And neither Wright nor Cone actually said the latter, nor even words to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/56 "2008-04-01T19:12:37Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Thomas Jefferson never took pride in his racism, or said that it was something to be emulated. [/quote] This is specious. He never expressed any shame in it or said that anyone should _not_ agree with him. He just assumed it was an uncontroversial fact that blacks were inferior to whites (his own jungle fever notwithstanding). > [@](#): > > He was so radical that he thought it was unfair influence for the older generation to impose it’s views upon successive generations. He did not express this sentiment in relationship to slavery but as a philsophical opinion in general. > [@](#): > > That is hardly the same as saying, “Christ favors black people over white people.” You still have not proven either that Cone said those things (and Spengler is hardly a reliable source) or that Wright himself believes them. The quotation about Jesus being “black” was clearly framed as being metaphorical. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/57 "2008-04-01T19:15:03Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Thomas Jefferson never took pride in his racism, or said that it was something to be emulated. [/QUOTE] [Weeelllll . . .](http://www.common-place.org/vol-01/no-04/garrett/index.shtml) > [@](#): > > Jefferson presented his racial views in a number of contexts, most famously in the _Notes on the State of Virginia,_ first published in 1787. In this work Jefferson argued against the French naturalist Buffon’s claims that America was a nation stilted by a brutal climate and thus materially incapable of greatness. Its animals were feeble and stunted in comparison to the hardy European breeds, and its native peoples hairless, enervated, and barely capable of reproducing themselves. Jefferson argued quite movingly for the nobility of Native Americans to bolster his case against Buffon as to the climactic splendor and present and future greatness of America. But as part of this argument he also argued for the deep inferiority of African Americans. > > Here’s how Jefferson closed his chapter on “Laws”: “I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments of both body and mind. It is not against experience to suppose, that different species of the same genus, or varieties of the same species, may possess different qualifications. Will not a lover of natural history then, one who views the gradations in all the races of animals with the eye of philosophy, excuse an effort to keep those in the department of man as distinct as nature has formed them? This unfortunate difference of color, and perhaps of faculty, is a powerful obstacle to the emancipation of these people.” > > This argument for the separation of the races based on the natural inferiority of blacks derived from Jefferson’s “observations” of the childlike simplicity of blacks, their wild imaginations, their incapacity to reason and create serious art, their “disagreeable odour.” Jefferson also emphasized that blacks exhibited a uniform aesthetic preference for the “flowing hair” and “elegant symmetry of form” of whites, a preference as uniform as “the preference of the Oran-ootan for the black women over those of his own species.” That is not necessarily “taking pride,” but it is speaking as one who has authority. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/58 "2008-04-01T19:15:52Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I don’t see how attempting to contort the meaning of “racist” is helpful to the discussion in any way. You can correctly describe Jefferson as a “racist”. But you know it has little to do with what is meant when someone in today’s society is considered a racist. Or you should. [/QUOTE] I disagree that there is any difference in meaning. Racism is racism. The only thing that changes is societal and ethical attitudes about it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/59 "2008-04-01T19:17:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] This is specious. He never expressed any shame in it… [/QUOTE] Do you mean the same Thomas Jefferson who said this concerning slavery: “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547/60 "2008-04-01T19:22:21Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Do you mean the same Thomas Jefferson who said this concerning slavery: “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [/QUOTE] His opposition to slavery was not grounded in any belief in racial equality. In his writings, he clearly and unambiguously expressed his opinion that blacks were inferior to whites and did so in terms that are as appalling as anything you’d ever see on Stormfront today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-obama-is-not-a-racist-and-neither-is-rev-wright-really/443547.md?page=4)