# \[sigh\].....US Chopper fires on wedding party. 40+ dead **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997 "2004-05-19T17:50:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/101 "2004-05-20T12:18:04Z")
> [@UselessGit](#): > > A friend of mine was in the Danish army in Yugoslavia. I remember talking to him about the war recently, and he metioned that the locals somtimes shot at the NATO troops. My friend and his comrades had to radio in for permission to fire back and were always denied. They just did what they had to do and accepted the risk of being hurt but did not shoot at the locals, because they were not at war with them. Seems logical to me - you don’t shoot the people you’re helping. This is why an increasing number of Americans object to US Troops serving in UN ops–the commanders put more value on the lives of the locals than on the lives of their soldiers. I don’t say I completely agree with those people. But they have, at least, a _little_ justice on their side. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/102 "2004-05-20T12:32:14Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Clearly you know absolutely nothing (or don’t care, which is worse) about gun safety. You might want to peruse one of the many sites that list the [“Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety”](http://www.dfg.ca.gov/ihea/ihea98a.html) Heh. You can’t explain why shooting a gun at an oblique angle in the middle of a desert, many miles from civilization, is fundamentally more dangerous then shooting into the air while hunting so you resort to these fallacious appeals to authority–“Iraqi’s shouldn’t fire guns into the air in the middle of the desert because the International Hunter Education Association says so!” (paraphrased) and “I’ve fired a gun, therefore I’m right!” (paraphrase). “They didn’t have a target!!!” Well so fucking what? Hunters miss, and the end result is that many of their shots are going to fall to the ground–just like the Iraqi’s. That report you linked to is pretty interesting–it looks like there are plenty of hunters who get shot while hunting. Hunting (at least in North America) is largely a recreational activity, i.e., people go out in the woods and kill things because it makes them feel good. Same reason these Iraqis were shooting weapons in the air in the middle of the desert–it made them feel good. > [@](#): > > And unless you’re clairvoyant, you cannot possibly state with any reasonable certainty that the people shooting rounds into the air were doing so at safe projectories. Correct. And unless you’re clairvoyant, you cannot possibly state that they were shooting them perpendicular to the ground. Since they’re not alive anymore to defend themselves, I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt. This whole “The Iraqi partygoers were stupid for shooting into the air argument” is just a construction to make you feel better about your government fragging a bunch of civilians, after all, they were just stupid Iraqi’s who don’t conform to IHEA standards of gun safety! ---
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/103 "2004-05-20T13:36:08Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > I don’t say I completely agree with those people. But they have, at least, a little justice on their side. I agree, which is why I added: > [@](#): > > The American troops really can’t seem to catch a break these days, this is a hell of a mess _if_ they were indeed shooting at a wedding. Until I know for sure I’m giving them the benefit of doubt - at least they are definately not shooting up weddings just for the fun of it. > [@Metacom](#): > > This whole “The Iraqi partygoers were stupid for shooting into the air argument” is just a construction to make you feel better about your government fragging a bunch of civilians, after all, they were just stupid Iraqi’s who don’t conform to IHEA standards of gun safety! Oh, come on… This whole “After all, they were just stupid Iraqi’s who don’t conform to IHEA standards of gun safety” is just a construction to give you the upper hand in a debate. Does it make you feel better to say people who don’t agree with you are racists? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/104 "2004-05-20T13:50:24Z")
Seems it was a safe house for foreign fighters, especially since wedding parties generally don’t shoot back. [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/105 "2004-05-20T13:55:17Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > This whole “The Iraqi partygoers were stupid for shooting into the air argument” is just a construction to make you feel better about your government fragging a bunch of civilians, after all, they were just stupid Iraqi’s who don’t conform to IHEA standards of gun safety! Again, I say: If there was an invading force in **my** country, and they were looking around for people firing guns, I’d think twice about shooting guns in the air. And that’s regardless if I felt they were in my country for good or evil. If they did not, then the blame can’t fall solely on the shoulders of the Americans. I don’t know how else to put it. Firing guns indiscriminately in a tumultuous political environment – how in the fuck can you think this is a good idea? Tradition aside? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/106 "2004-05-20T14:02:52Z")
For clarity, I was referring to “those people in America who do not want US personnel serving in UN peacekeeping ops”. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/107 "2004-05-20T14:23:31Z")
**Metacom** , You can’t explain why shooting a gun at _any_ angle in the middle of a large group of people (including women and _children_, btw), let alone in the middle of a _war zone_, is fundamentally _safe_, let alone _less_ dangerous th **a** n hunting, so you resort to these fallacious and offensive accusations of racism. You’ve never even so much as held a gun, yet you profess to know anything about their safe use under any circumstances. You ignore the fact that guns are **weapons** , not toys and should be handled with respect and care and not fired willy-nilly without regard to the safety of those around you. And then you have the audacity to accuse me of wanting to _feel good_(???) about people being _killed_? And to put it in quotes so it looks like I actually _said_ that vile crap? You are despicable. I’m so done with your disgusting ass. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/108 "2004-05-20T15:18:23Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > You can’t explain why shooting a gun at _any_ angle in the middle of a large group of people (including women and _children_, btw), I can explain why celebratory gunfire in the middle of the desert is as safe as hunting (“fundamentally safe” is a seperate issue–one that I haven’t argued): They both involve bullets being shot well away from where they are likely to hit people. You’re the one who can’t explain why one is significantly less safe then the other without resorting to worthless appeals to authority or circular reasoning. > [@](#): > > let alone in the middle of a _war zone_, is fundamentally _safe_, let alone _less_ dangerous th **a** n hunting The “war zone” issue is entirely distinct from the “celebratory gunfire issue.” If you’d agree that celebratory gunfire doesn’t make the Iraqis who did this stupid, I’d be happy to move on to that. > [@](#): > > so you resort to these fallacious and offensive accusations of racism. I never accused anyone of being racist. Please don’t say that I did. > [@Shayna](#): > > You’ve never even so much as held a gun, yet you profess to know anything about their safe use under any circumstances. What the fuck? Where do you get off saying that? I’ve never said anything about my experience with firearms, in this thread or elsewhere on the SDMB. I have, in fact, held and shot guns, and received instruction on how to do so safely. > [@](#): > > You ignore the fact that guns are **weapons** , not toys and should be handled with respect and care and not fired willy-nilly without regard to the safety of those around you. Here you go again–you’re once again refusing to explain why shooting off guns into the air in the middle of the desert is more unsafe then hunting. Rather then acknowledge that there really isn’t that much of a safety difference, and that the sole proveable reason the act was unwise was because of the risk of being shot by the US, you go back to circular reasoning: It’s stupid to shoot celebratory gunfire in the middle of the desert because it’s unsafe, and it’s unsafe because people shouldn’t do celebratory gunfire. > [@Shayna](#): > > And then you have the audacity to accuse me of wanting to _feel good_(???) about people being _killed_?And to put it in quotes so it looks like I actually said that vile crap? You are despicable. I’m so done with your disgusting ass. That’s not what I said. I said you characterized them as stupid to make you feel _better_ about them being killed, i.e., that you’re fallaciously rationalizing there being shot has a result of their stupidity, which is evidenced by them shooting guns off to celebrate a marriage. That’s a far, far, cry from feeling _good_ about them being killed. And I did NOT put the above in quotes. What I put in quotes was paraphrases of your arguments (which were clearly marked as such) as I understood them. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/109 "2004-05-20T15:27:29Z")
Shayna, regardless of the stupidity of firing guns in the air, the fact is it is still a part of their traditions. when they started to fire off the guns, ground troops investigated, saw there was no danger and backed off. Then the Apache helicopter came in and killed them. these people were killed beause of a breakdown in communication. Even if they were firing in the air, would it not make more sense for the pilot to back off, request clarification ( get the groung troops to investigate) before going back in? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/110 "2004-05-20T15:48:51Z")
[Voice of Reason]Outside a firefight, anyone discharging a firearm without having a _clear_ idea of where the projectile(s) will end up is behaving in a stupid and undeniably unsafe manner. Projectiles from an assault rifle like the AK-47 fly for friggin’ miles. Also, leveling someone’s village with explosive ordnance from helicopter gunships because they fire AK-47s into the air is a massive overreaction and as such a fuck-up, particularly in an occupation/liberation scenario.[/Voice of Reason] ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/111 "2004-05-20T15:49:05Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Seems it was a safe house for foreign fighters, especially since wedding parties generally don’t shoot back. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html) Something seems to have been up … it’s hard to accept the “wedding party” interpretation at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/112 "2004-05-20T16:06:26Z")
What about the fact that helicopters, from my experiance, are not real “sneaky”. You can hear them coming from quite a distance, in many instances before you can even see them. Now perhaps it is so that this is a relevant cultural expression; to fire off automatic rifles for a celebration. I have no problem with that, other than it’s an intrinsically dangerous activity. But would you not wait for the helicopter to pass by before commencing firing into the air, lest the pilot decide you’re joyous celebration is actually an attack? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/113 "2004-05-20T16:08:40Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > Shayna regardless of the stupidity of firing guns in the air, the fact is it is still a part of their traditions. Yes. And one can safely presume that they **know** where they aim at = at nothing. People here seem to argue that they aim at their own wedding party. What else are you going to invent to “proof” that Iraqis who hold on to their tradition are “idiots”. Read: **I say: Traditions** Understand: That means it is something that is done all the time. Read: People know what they are doing. Add: Those who fire these arms are men. Add: This are men who live in a culture where men are expected to provide for protection and safety for the women and children. They are supposed to do that even when they are still children themselves. Conclude: They do not aim in a direction were someone can get hurt. If they kill or hurt someone they are done in their community for being a failior of a man. I don’t say that accidents with this kind of tradition are completely excluded. I say that you have no clue what you talk about because you have no idea of Iraq, its population, its traditions and its cultures. You also have no clue about Islam. Because no, Muslims do not get drunk. They do not drink alcohol. And most certainly not at a wedding where everyone can witness it that they don’t obey this command. > [@](#): > > when they started to fire off the guns, ground troops investigated, saw there was no danger and backed off. > Then the Apache helicopter came in and killed them. > these people were killed beause of a breakdown in communication. Even if they were firing in the air, would it not make more sense for the pilot to back off, request clarification ( get the groung troops to investigate) before going back in? Yes, I heard this version also. Now there are other versions surfacing. 1. About the money that is now claimed to be found and whatever else the US army now comes up with. Not to mention the miracle that paper money survives in blowed- up houses (reminds me at the “terrorist passport” that miraculously landed on top of the rubble of the WTC) : People who marry receive money as gift. So it is not such a miracle there is money found where there is a wedding party. It is also no miracle there are weapons where there is a wedding. It is also not a miracle that at the border some people from across the border attend a wedding. They can be relatives or they can be friends, whatever. Are you going to argue now that this is impossible, just because the US army makes an other story of this? 1. Can someone tell me how flattening a village killing more then 42 people including women and children - and it seems also including someone known to be a singer at wedding partys and this man’s brother - has even remotely something to do with “attacking a safe house”. 2. Can someone also explain what can ever justify for the US military to just start blowing up houses on **simple suspicion** that there **might** be some resistance fighters inside. They learned a lot from the Isrealis, no? (Even the Abu Graib pictures show that clearly. Exactly the same methods are said to be used by Israel on Palestinians. Hail Bush the Sharon- lover.) 3. You seem always to forget that the US military is the invader there. They have no right whatsoever to blow anything - or anyone - up. The Iraqis on the other hand have every right to blow every US’er up whenever they want to. I would do exactly the same when my nation was invaded and occupied. Wouldn’t you? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/114 "2004-05-20T16:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > People here seem to argue that they aim at their own wedding party. There are 113 posts in this thread. Point to ONE of them that say this. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/115 "2004-05-20T16:16:20Z")
Ryan, It is for the same money possible that they didn’t hear a helicopter coming **because** they were in the middle of firing arms. It is for the same money possible that the story about them being checked out by ground military and thus felt safe to fire those arms (And not only not hearing it coming, but not expecting any helicopter to even appear.) Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/116 "2004-05-20T16:21:56Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > There are 113 posts in this thread. Point to ONE of them that say this. Every post where the writer claims that they are idiots to start firing arms while surrounded by people holds this insinuation. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/117 "2004-05-20T16:31:38Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > Every post where the writer claims that they are idiots to start firing arms while surrounded by people holds this insinuation. > > Salaam. A Incorrect. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/118 "2004-05-20T16:42:05Z")
You can find that “incorrect”. I find it an absolutely correct interpretation. Since you have an other one and tell me that I am wrong: Please explain. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/119 "2004-05-20T16:42:48Z")
You can find that “incorrect”. I find it an absolutely correct interpretation. Since you have an other one and tell me that I am wrong: Please explain. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997/120 "2004-05-20T16:47:38Z")
You originally said: > [@](#): > > People here seem to argue that they aim at their own wedding party. You have failed to provide ANY evidence of the sort. Of 116 posts in this thread, you haven’t pointed ot ONE of them that say this. Tell me, Aldabaran, what is your definition of “aim”? And how can you complain about American arrogance when you try to offer absolute interpretations of several dozen posters’ words? Is there nothing in your religion and culture that values honesty and integrity? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sigh-us-chopper-fires-on-wedding-party-40-dead/245997.md?page=7)