# Sign stealing in baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [January 13, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380 "2020-01-13T23:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/41 "2020-01-15T16:22:10Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > In football you can legally lay out an opponent with a hit that breaks bones. You should be able to do that in chess because football and chess are both games. Anything else would be unsportsmanlike. [https://www.ebay.com/itm/293415069680](https://www.ebay.com/itm/293415069680) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/42 "2020-01-15T16:37:57Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > [https://www.ebay.com/itm/293415069680](https://www.ebay.com/itm/293415069680) There always is [chess boxing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ZwMVLMezI). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/43 "2020-01-15T18:01:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > There always is [chess boxing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7ZwMVLMezI). There’s a trainer in the corner! That’s unsportsmanlike! ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/44 "2020-01-15T18:33:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > While true, it really doesn’t matter. This is certainly correct. Cheating is cheating even if you are bad at it, However, I’m seeing a lot of argument that the Astros and teams in general are now encouraged to cheat as a World Series win is worth this punishment. If you show that the cheating didn’t make much of a difference than it was certainly not worth it for the Astros or future teams. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/45 "2020-01-15T19:26:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > In football you can legally lay out an opponent with a hit that breaks bones. You should be able to do that in chess because football and chess are both games. Anything else would be unsportsmanlike. Yes, that’s funny, but to me “The players and no one else play the game” is a fundamental principle defining games. Unless you posit that the real players in a baseball, football, or basketball game are actually the managers/coaches, and the people on the field are just pawns, in which case, the wins/losses should be in the managers’/coaches’ names rather than in the teams’ names. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/46 "2020-01-15T19:47:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, that’s funny, but to me “The players and no one else play the game” is a fundamental principle defining games. Unless you posit that the real players in a baseball, football, or basketball game are actually the managers/coaches, and the people on the field are just pawns, in which case, the wins/losses should be in the managers’/coaches’ names rather than in the teams’ names. Players play. Coaches and managers coach, game plan, and make decisions. Maybe we should just let players coach themselves too, coaches have no place in competition because they’re not playing the game. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/47 "2020-01-15T19:56:10Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Players play. Coaches and managers coach, game plan, and make decisions. Maybe we should just let players coach themselves too, coaches have no place in competition because they’re not playing the game. Coaches are like teachers or instructors. They might play a role in practice sessions or workouts, but they should be nowhere near an actual game. The players should make their own plans and decisions, choosing among themselves a captain to lead them. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/48 "2020-01-15T21:11:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Coaches are like teachers or instructors. They might play a role in practice sessions or workouts, but they should be nowhere near an actual game. The players should make their own plans and decisions, choosing among themselves a captain to lead them. That’s your opinion and you certainly have a right to it. But are there any professional team sports that even begin to approach this ideal? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/49 "2020-01-15T21:12:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Coaches are like teachers or instructors. They might play a role in practice sessions or workouts, but they should be nowhere near an actual game. The players should make their own plans and decisions, choosing among themselves a captain to lead them. Where are you getting your definition of “game” and what games currently meet your rigid specifications? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/50 "2020-01-15T21:17:54Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > That’s your opinion and you certainly have a right to it. > > But are there any professional team sports that even begin to approach this ideal? Or college, or high school? Team sports have coaches, who also coach during a game. It’s been that way for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/51 "2020-01-15T21:32:52Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Where are you getting your definition of “game” and what games currently meet your rigid specifications? > [@muldoonthief](#): > > Or college, or high school? Team sports have coaches, who also coach during a game. It’s been that way for a very long time. No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They’re all cheating all the time. The cheating (in my eyes) extends to substitutions. Substitutions should be allowed only in the case of injury, so no designated hitter, no relief pitchers, no pinch hitters, no pinch runners. Nine players, period. And no platooning of offense, defense, and special teams in football. Eleven players start the game; the same eleven players stay on the field until it ends. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/52 "2020-01-15T21:46:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They’re all cheating all the time. Acsenray, you may want to at least consider the possibility that games are creations of people, and the rules by which they are played are, not to put too fine a point on it, whatever works. Given that essentially all team sports have in-game coaching, and everyone except you is okay with it, and it seems to work fine, perhaps you should revisit what the word “cheating” means. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/53 "2020-01-15T23:12:28Z")
While we’re at it let’s get rid of uniforms too, so we can fully enjoy the display of athletic bodies as they did in the original Olympic Games. Competing while clothed or wearing other protective equipment is cheating. [![](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h5/h5_14.130.12.jpg) ](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h5/h5_14.130.12.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/54 "2020-01-15T23:36:18Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > While we’re at it let’s get rid of uniforms too, so we can fully enjoy the display of athletic bodies as they did in the original Olympic Games. Competing while clothed or wearing other protective equipment is cheating. > > [https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h5/h5\_14.130.12.jpg](https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h5/h5_14.130.12.jpg) The presence or not of uniforms is irrelevant to my views on the fundamental definition of a game and players. Go ahead and play nude if you like. I wouldn’t consider that unsportsmanlike. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/55 "2020-01-15T23:52:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They’re all cheating all the time. > > The cheating (in my eyes) extends to substitutions. Substitutions should be allowed only in the case of injury, so no designated hitter, no relief pitchers, no pinch hitters, no pinch runners. Nine players, period. > > And no platooning of offense, defense, and special teams in football. Eleven players start the game; the same eleven players stay on the field until it ends. Also, lets get rid of the forward pass in football. And dribbling in basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/56 "2020-01-16T00:07:05Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Also, lets get rid of the forward pass in football. And dribbling in basketball. Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/57 "2020-01-16T00:46:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well, yeah. The way I see it, it’s a game, so any help to the players is kibbitzing. You aren’t allowed to receive instructions from coaches when you’re playing chess or Jeopardy, so you shouldn’t have access to the advice/instruction coaches when you’re playing baseball, basketball, or football. It should be considered unsportsmanlike. Or, you know, the coaches are part of the team. They all get championship rings if they win, not just the big boys on the field. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/58 "2020-01-16T00:50:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else. Your views are eccentric and you should expect to be derided when expressing them. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/59 "2020-01-16T01:10:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They’re all cheating all the time. In your opinion, when did the modern era start and when did things closely match your ideal level of purity? ---
**Author:** ![SuperAbe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@SuperAbe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuperAbe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/60 "2020-01-16T01:33:09Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else. No room for a “Team of Theseus”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=4)