# Sign stealing in baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [January 13, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380 "2020-01-13T23:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/61 "2020-01-16T03:36:48Z")
**Acsenray** , I don’t know what you’re talking about here, but the rest of the folks in this thread seem to be talking about sports. If you want to talk about some other sort of activity that works completely differently than every other sports activity in history, feel free to make your own thread about it. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/62 "2020-01-16T10:28:21Z")
I have some sympathy with what\*\* Acsenray\*\* is trying to say. I am also rather depressed about how players these days seem incapable of making decisions on the field for themselves. Sure, have the coaches and managers work with the players during the week to produce a game plan etc - but when the players step on the field, that should be it. There’s a mental side to any tactical sport during play - why don’t the players have to manage that? Take tennis - there the players are not allowed to receive in-game coaching, yet they go through all sorts of tortuous subterfuge to hide the fact that they are attempting to anyway. The players on the field should be responsible for every decision made by their team in the course of the game. The current image of a coach prowling the sidelines continually barking instructions to players whilst being fed information from an army of assistant coaches is not particularly appealing. I also agree about substitutions - pick your team, run what ya brung. Injury subs are fine (yes, it’s not perfect and they will be abused - but it’s still better than unlimited tactical substitutions). Players should be able to do all the skills required - sure, they will have their specialities, but they should have more than just that. I’m not saying the current situation is cheating - this is not against the rules. But it is against the spirit how I think sport should be played. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/63 "2020-01-16T13:32:24Z")
The thread had gotten a bit sidetracked but my $0.02: Ultimately, games/sports are played for personal enjoyment and for the enjoyment of spectators. You can try to design some kind of purity standard to be considered a “real” sport or for a sport to be “properly” played, but, like a lot of purity standards, that misses the forest for the trees. As both players and fans, we currently don’t mind coaches (or substitutions or whatever). And rather than some nebulous purity standard serving some non-existent ideal, it’s the players and fans who should be served. Actually, this whole importance ascribed to the proper play to approach games is also a bit of a modern fad. Games and their rules changed all the time in the past. I’m sure there were some people who didn’t like it, but that never stopped any of those games from changing when a sufficient number of people agreed to all play the same way. If you personally think games should be played a certain way, go nuts and insist on your own house rules when you are on your own home turf. But don’t expect others to go along with it. This is how games have always been played/changed since time immemorial. It is, in one sense, the purest and most ancient way to play games. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/64 "2020-01-16T13:40:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t think MLB went down hard enough on the Astros. Every single player on the team who took part should get a one-year suspension. The manager should get a lifetime ban as should the GM. If Houston has to put major league uniforms on its AAA players for a year, so be it. Let them suck. Munch makes a good point here: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22079256&postcount=321](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22079256&postcount=321) All of this only came to light because a player said something. If this had led to a bunch of players getting penalized or even banned from baseball, no other player would ever come forward. The guys you rat out might be your teammates one day. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/65 "2020-01-16T13:42:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I have to agree, and suspect it’s because they just couldn’t firmly sort out which players were more responsible than others. > > AJ Hinch is probably done; I don’t think he will ever manage in the big leagues again, even after his suspension. Managers are a dime a dozen these days. Luhnow will get another job. Taubman, who was suspended for a different reason, will never work in MLB again in any capacity. I am disappointed that the owners didn’t get hit harder. The value of a championship to the owners is a lot more than 5 million dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/66 "2020-01-16T13:47:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > More importantly, how does MLB prevent this in the future? I think each team puts a person in the press box, well away from the dugout. When he sees a play he thinks should be challenged, he hits a button that turns on a light in the dugout. No other form of communication should be allowed. You just can’t have the replay screens in close proximity to the dugout or clubhouse. This penalty is going to have a deterrent effect. Electronic communication with team specific encryption, give the pitcher one of those secret service ear pieces. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/67 "2020-01-16T13:52:30Z")
Sounds like a whole load of nothing. One team is trying to send secret signals, the other is trying to find out what they are. It is a public space and I couldn’t care less. Find a way to pass messages or agree tactics that can’t be intercepted if it bothers you so much. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/68 "2020-01-16T13:58:18Z")
> [@txjim](#): > > I don’t know enough about the mechanics of the sport to understand the level of advantage knowing the pitch gives the batter. Is it a question of knowing when not to swing or does the batter have a measurable advantage if they know if the next pitch is a fastball or changeup? There is a lot of rock paper scissor to pitching/hitting. If you tell batters what pitch is coming, it’s not quite like telling you that the other guy is going to throw scissor but it’s might be like telling you that the other dug is not going to throw rock. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/69 "2020-01-16T14:11:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Find a way to pass messages or agree tactics that can’t be intercepted if it bothers you so much. The game is supposed to be about hitting a ball and running, not developing uncrackable information transmission systems. > [@Future\_Cheesesteak](#): > > I don’t know how people used to like this game before they developed the quantum entanglement brainwave implants. The catcher used to stick his fingers down to indicate the pitch instead of discussing strategy telepathically with the pitcher and manager. Ridiculous! ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/70 "2020-01-16T14:12:42Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Sounds like a whole load of nothing. > > One team is trying to send secret signals, the other is trying to find out what they are. It is a public space and I couldn’t care less. Find a way to pass messages or agree tactics that can’t be intercepted if it bothers you so much. Currently it’s against the rules to send signals electronically. It’s also against the rules for the opponent to use electronic means to intercept and/or relay those signals. Using non-electronic methods of doing either is allowed. If you excuse electronic surveillance to steal signals but not the other way around then you’re giving one side an unfair disadvantage. I think that’s what went over your head here. To repeat: sending secret signals and intercepting them is allowed. The use of electronics to assist that isn’t, on either side. The Astros used cameras to spy and gained an advantage against the rules and again the other side wasn’t allowed to use. Do you now get why this is more than a “whole load of nothing”? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/71 "2020-01-16T14:15:47Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The game is supposed to be about hitting a ball and running, not developing uncrackable information transmission systems. And yet both baseball and football do include that as part of the sport. An important part that can mean the difference between winning and losing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/72 "2020-01-16T14:20:53Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > Rally basic question-- how does the catcher determine what pitch will work best and why can’t the pitcher figure that out on his own? > > Brian The catcher has to know what pitch is coming otherwise you get a lot of passed balls and a lot of stolen bases. The communication goes from catcher to pitcher because a signal from the pitcher can be read by the batter and the pitcher might as well be yelling the signals to the catcher, and that sorta defeats the purpose. Catchers can also relay signals from the manager and coach. My catching coach believes its because: Pitchers= the dumb Catchers= the smart This is not necessarily true but a catcher will frequently know the batters better than the pitcher, especially a relief pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/73 "2020-01-16T14:36:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > One could argue that given the fact that this scandal involves potentially games in two different World Series (let’s not just assume that Cora didn’t take his tactics with him when he went to Boston), this could be the biggest MLB scandal since the 1919 Black Sox debacle. > > Alex Cora, Joe Jackson and Pete Rose welcome you to eternal baseball hell. I have argued that Pete Rose deserves to be inducted while he still breathes but I can see why opinions might differ. I cannot understand the resistance to vacating the eternal ban on Joe Jackson. There is so much evidence that he was innocent that no court would ever convict. It’s been almost a century. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/74 "2020-01-16T14:42:04Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Do you now get why this is more than a “whole load of nothing”? I think **Novelty Bubble** got it from the beginning but didn’t really care. From a baseball fan’s perspective, it matters a great deal. From the perspective of somebody who doesn’t follow the sport, especially anybody from a culture that doesn’t play baseball, this seems like the typical sports thing - life and death important to somebody who follows it but vaguely silly and unimportant to everybody else. I’ll admit, the whole thing (the cheating and the reactions to it) does seem vaguely ridiculous if I step back. I probably react the same way when I see engaged soccer fans get heated over dives or whatever. But that’s what makes sports fun, and the reaction is very human - we get passionate about things that really don’t matter in the grand scheme. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/75 "2020-01-16T14:44:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That would violate a basic rule in Major League Baseball: No electronic equipment allowed Meh, they can make an exception. The ball field is covered with cameras from every angle, instant replay technology has been around for a long time. We are about to implement robo-umpiring. Players are using ipads to figure out how to handle their next at bat. We just don’t want technology enhancing the player’s natural ability. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/76 "2020-01-16T14:48:55Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Or college, or high school? Team sports have coaches, who also coach during a game. It’s been that way for a very long time. Or little league team for that matter. I distinctly remember yelling at the batter to run and stop looking at the ball on pretty much every hit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/77 "2020-01-16T14:53:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They’re all cheating all the time. > > The cheating (in my eyes) extends to substitutions. Substitutions should be allowed only in the case of injury, so no designated hitter, no relief pitchers, no pinch hitters, no pinch runners. Nine players, period. > > And no platooning of offense, defense, and special teams in football. Eleven players start the game; the same eleven players stay on the field until it ends. I’m sure there are people out there that think that we should allow 9 designated hitters in baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/78 "2020-01-16T14:56:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else. Yeah but it looks like you want to limit the players too. You want football teams to run the same guys on offense and defense. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/79 "2020-01-16T15:44:21Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The game is supposed to be about hitting a ball and running, not developing uncrackable information transmission systems. So hit the ball and run and stop whining. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/80 "2020-01-16T15:51:21Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Currently it’s against the rules to send signals electronically. It’s also against the rules for the opponent to use electronic means to intercept and/or relay those signals. Using non-electronic methods of doing either is allowed. If you excuse electronic surveillance to steal signals but not the other way around then you’re giving one side an unfair disadvantage. I think that’s what went over your head here. > > To repeat: sending secret signals and intercepting them is allowed. The use of electronics to assist that isn’t, on either side. The Astros used cameras to spy and gained an advantage against the rules and again the other side wasn’t allowed to use. > > Do you now get why this is more than a “whole load of nothing”? No, I understand that what they did is technically against the rules but I’m not able to consider it a big deal. There was an analogous situation in the UK where a football team was sanctioned for spying on their opponents preparations for an upcoming game. I thought the reaction in that case was [over the top](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/18/leeds-united-fined-200000-derby-spying) as well. For some context, that fine is three times the size handed out to Bulgaria as a result of their racist abuse at a recent England game. Glad that football has it’s priorities in order. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=5)