# Sign stealing in baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [January 13, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380 "2020-01-13T23:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/81 "2020-01-16T19:37:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, I understand that what they did is technically against the rules but I’m not able to consider it a big deal. It’s not “technically” against the rules. It’s in direct violation of a rule that was implemented specifically to prevent the thing they were doing. The people in charge of baseball, and anyone who knows anything about baseball, knew that it was technically possible to view catchers signs from a center field camera and relay that information to the batter before the pitch. You don’t need to be some sort of baseball savant or code breaking genius to figure out 1 finger is a fastball, 2 is a curve and 3 is a changeup. Nor do you need to be particularly sophisticated to figure out how to signal to the batter, the Astros were banging on a garbage can, for chrissake. The man in charge of MLB, Rob Manfred, said to the teams, rather than force teams to make complex, constantly changing pitching signs part of the game, we will make it against the rules to do this nonsense. All you have to do to stay in the good is to NOT use cameras and monitors to decode pitching signs during the game. The Astros decided “Fuck you, Commissioner Manfred, I’m doing it anyway”. That’s what makes it a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/82 "2020-01-16T19:42:59Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The man in charge of MLB, Rob Manfred, said to the teams, rather than force teams to make complex, constantly changing pitching signs part of the game, we will make it against the rules to do this nonsense. All you have to do to stay in the good is to NOT use cameras and monitors to decode pitching signs during the game. The Astros decided “Fuck you, Commissioner Manfred, I’m doing it anyway”. > > That’s what makes it a big deal. Let’s kick them out of the AL West. The Mariners haven’t been in the playoffs in a generation. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/83 "2020-01-16T20:33:40Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s not “technically” against the rules. It’s in direct violation of a rule that was implemented specifically to prevent the thing they were doing. Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn’t seem like the punishment fits the “crime” in this case. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/84 "2020-01-16T20:52:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn’t seem like the punishment fits the “crime” in this case. It’s a really big deal, like it or not, because it calls into question the results of championship games. The Astros won the 2017 World Series by the thinnest of margins. Did cheating help them? Perhaps it did, we can’t know, but a professional sports league has to clamp down on perceptions thatthe championships are tainted. MLB LOOKS BAD as a result of this. Looking good is kind of the whole point of an entertainment business. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/85 "2020-01-16T21:01:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn’t seem like the punishment fits the “crime” in this case. They broke a rule that was created/clarified that very year to stop the exact activity they were engaged in. If it didn’t impact the game, it’s remarkably foolish to break such a specific rule to get no advantage over your opponent. If it did impact the game, it’s a pretty big deal to gain an advantage in a way that was specifically ruled against by the commissioner of the league. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/86 "2020-01-16T21:05:02Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn’t seem like the punishment fits the “crime” in this case. Speaking as a life long Dodgers fan, I won’t be satisfied until Minute Maid Park is torn down so that no two stones lay together, the ground salted so nothing grows, the players, owners and crew put to the sword and their families sold into bondage in Canaan. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/87 "2020-01-16T21:08:06Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Your views are eccentric and you should expect to be derided when expressing them. If you put this on a t-shirt, I’ll buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/88 "2020-01-16T22:19:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s a really big deal, like it or not, I just can’t summon up any outrage over it. Stealing and relaying signs is not illegal but certain methods of doing so are? pretty thin gruel to me. If it were such a game-changer why not just ban the practice outright? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/89 "2020-01-16T22:21:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Speaking as a life long Dodgers fan, I won’t be satisfied until Minute Maid Park is torn down so that no two stones lay together, the ground salted so nothing grows, the players, owners and crew put to the sword and their families sold into bondage in Canaan. 😛 And the lamentation of their women? At least someone is retaining a sense of proportion. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/90 "2020-01-16T22:39:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I just can’t summon up any outrage over it. Stealing and relaying signs is not illegal but certain methods of doing so are? pretty thin gruel to me. If it were such a game-changer why not just ban the practice outright? 88 In most situations, it is impossible to steal the signs without some kind of camera assistance, since the sign stealer is at least 300 feet away from the signaler. The exception is the somewhat uncommon situation (? maybe 10 percent of the at bats ?) where the batting team has a runner at second base. In those cases the catcher and pitcher switch to a more complex code. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/91 "2020-01-16T23:02:09Z")
Looks like Altuve was [bugged up](https://www.tsn.ca/jose-altuve-denies-use-of-buzzer-amid-controversy-1.1428534) against Chapman in last year’s play-offs. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/92 "2020-01-16T23:48:53Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Looks like Altuve was [bugged up](https://www.tsn.ca/jose-altuve-denies-use-of-buzzer-amid-controversy-1.1428534) against Chapman in last year’s play-offs. To add - aw gee, Jose’s _so shy_ with the chest-bearing! (tee-hee-hee-hee!) I think this could be really large, scary shit now. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/93 "2020-01-17T01:30:17Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > In most situations, it is impossible to steal the signs without some kind of camera assistance, since the sign stealer is at least 300 feet away from the signaler. > > The exception is the somewhat uncommon situation (? maybe 10 percent of the at bats ?) where the batting team has a runner at second base. In those cases the catcher and pitcher switch to a more complex code. About 17%, in 2019. With a runner on second, batters had BA/OBP/SLG of .252/.336/.430 and with no runner on second they hit .252/.318/.435. So if teams are stealing signs with guys on second base, they’re mostly not doing a particularly good job. Teams with a runner on second hit fewer home runs per plate appearance (.032 vs. .037) but hit sacrifice bunts or flies more than twice as often (.018 vs .007). ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/94 "2020-01-17T02:03:14Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Looks like Altuve was [bugged up](https://www.tsn.ca/jose-altuve-denies-use-of-buzzer-amid-controversy-1.1428534) against Chapman in last year’s play-offs. My ten year old Yankee fan kid just saw this and now went from baseball fanatic to never wanting to watch again. “What’s the point, if everyone is cheating? The whole season was a waste.” ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/95 "2020-01-17T04:52:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah but it looks like you want to limit the players too. You want football teams to run the same guys on offense and defense. Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes. No one lets the big HR hitters take time off duing the innings when his team are in the field, despite the fact he’s a slow, lumbering log who couldn’t catch a bus. Would you like to see a baseball team made up of 9 heavy hitters who bat, and 9 whizz kids in the field? Look - if they’re the rules, they’re the rules. It’s just not how I like to see a game played. (Correct - I don’t like the DH, in case you’re wondering. Pitchers have 2 arms - they can swing a bat. And they did without any serious issues for nearly 100 years in pro ball.) ---
**Author:** ![Moonchild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Moonchild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonchild)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/96 "2020-01-17T20:15:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Speaking as a life long Dodgers fan, I won’t be satisfied until Minute Maid Park is torn down so that no two stones lay together, the ground salted so nothing grows, the players, owners and crew put to the sword and their families sold into bondage in Canaan. 😛 Or at least until we make them change the stadium name back to Enron Field. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/97 "2020-01-17T20:45:57Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes. > No one lets the big HR hitters take time off duing the innings when his team are in the field, despite the fact he’s a slow, lumbering log who couldn’t catch a bus. > Would you like to see a baseball team made up of 9 heavy hitters who bat, and 9 whizz kids in the field? Look - if they’re the rules, they’re the rules. It’s just not how I like to see a game played. > > (Correct - I don’t like the DH, in case you’re wondering. Pitchers have 2 arms - they can swing a bat. And they did without any serious issues for nearly 100 years in pro ball.) If you want to watch badly-performing athletes, just watch the minor leagues. Or the XFL in a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/98 "2020-01-17T23:51:57Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I just can’t summon up any outrage over it. Stealing and relaying signs is not illegal but certain methods of doing so are? pretty thin gruel to me. If it were such a game-changer why not just ban the practice outright? Well, it’s legal to run the bases but not ride a bicycle. It’s legal to use a glove but not a 20-foot-long pole with a net on it. It’s legal to pitch the ball really hard but not use the spitball. Certain methods are always illegal, in all sports. The reason it’s legal to steal signs with your eyeballs is that it makes perfect sense to have players on the field be allowed to use their eyes and ears to ascertain what the opposing players intend to do. If the third base coach yells “Bunt! Bunt!” you wouldn’t ask the opposing players to pretend they didn’t hear that; well, if they give a sign the opposition knows means “bunt,” why should they pretend they didn’t see that? Allowing the use of mechanical devices off the field of play removes that from the hands of the players and coaches and from their physical limitations. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/99 "2020-01-18T01:17:22Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes. You do realize that was how it was once played. If people had wanted to see it that way, the NFL wouldn’t have changed the rule. The results today would be lousy football, especially since no one has any experience being a two-way player. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/100 "2020-01-18T01:32:38Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > You do realize that was how it was once played. If people had wanted to see it that way, the NFL wouldn’t have changed the rule. > > The results today would be lousy football, especially since **no one has any experience being a two-way player.** Along with the fact that players are far bigger and faster, resulting in a much more punishing game. I doubt it’s possible for players (at their current size) to have the stamina needed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=6)