# Sign stealing in baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [January 13, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380 "2020-01-13T23:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/101 "2020-01-18T01:59:33Z")
If everyone were required to be all-rounders the recruiting and training system would stop producing players who would be physically incapable of going both ways. The whole system that includes diet and years of physical training would start producing players that are small enough to run competently and also big enough to block competently, instead of outliers on either end of the spectrum of humanity whose bodies are so extreme as to be capable of only a narrow set of tasks. The game would also become less physically destructive because you would not have such extreme differences in the build of players tackling and players being tackled. The sport would tend more toward a sweet spot of above-average human rather than extreme outlying specimens. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/102 "2020-01-18T02:16:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The sport would tend more toward a sweet spot of above-average human rather than extreme outlying specimens. Just a different set of extreme outliers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/103 "2020-01-18T04:00:48Z")
All very interesting but quite off topic, so let’s end the team hijack please, thanks. RickJay Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2020, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/104 "2020-01-18T08:07:30Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Along with the fact that players are far bigger and faster, resulting in a much more punishing game. I doubt it’s possible for players (at their current size) to have the stamina needed. You change the rules, you get a different game. If you want to see what incredibly fit footballers who run the whole 80 minutes look like, look at Aussie Rules. As a group, they are also the only people who make me feel small, (they tend to tall and muscular). They aren’t as bulky as rugby or gridiron players but they aren’t as light as professional runners either: they are incredible athletes. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/105 "2020-01-18T16:33:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > More importantly, how does MLB prevent this in the future? I vaguely remember a story about a game between Stanford and either the Giants or A’s where they tested out a method for the catcher to send signals electronically to the pitcher by the catcher pushing a button on his mitt. The problem was, the pitches hit the mitt so hard that they broke the signaling device. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/106 "2020-01-24T21:55:18Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes. > No one lets the big HR hitters take time off duing the innings when his team are in the field, despite the fact he’s a slow, lumbering log who couldn’t catch a bus. > Would you like to see a baseball team made up of 9 heavy hitters who bat, and 9 whizz kids in the field? Look - if they’re the rules, they’re the rules. It’s just not how I like to see a game played. > > (Correct - I don’t like the DH, in case you’re wondering. Pitchers have 2 arms - they can swing a bat. And they did without any serious issues for nearly 100 years in pro ball.) I think it might be fun to watch a game with 9 designated hitters and 9 fielders. Maybe a game during the All Star break. I bet there is a AAA position player out there that might actually be the best fielders for their position but they can’t hit. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/107 "2020-01-25T01:12:01Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > You know, that’s the thing though. > > Baseball has decided using your unaided eyes and ears to steal signals is not just ok but a lauded and traditional part of the game but using any form of electronics to do so is not. How’s that George Carlin opening line go? “Baseball is 19th Century Pastoral; Football is 20th Century Industrial”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/108 "2020-01-31T18:37:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > All of this only came to light because a player said something. If this had led to a bunch of players getting penalized or even banned from baseball, no other player would ever come forward. The guys you rat out might be your teammates one day. Easy. If you’re the whistleblower, you’re guaranteed no punishment. Others on the team are subject to punishment. I’m aghast that all the Astros players who were in on it, just as much as the coaches, get a free pass. At the very least, no Astros player should get into the Hall. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2020, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/109 "2020-02-08T06:50:25Z")
Talk about strategic timing on releasing the news a particularly eye-opening development: > **[Report: Astros front office initiated sign scheme](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28655757/report-astros-front-office-laid-groundwork-codebreaker-sign-stealing-program)** > > A program called "Codebreaker" was introduced to the Astros by an intern in the organization in September 2016, and laid the groundwork for the team's electronic sign-stealing ploys, The Wall Street Journal reports. I assume the WSJ agreed to release it after the Friday news cycle, hoping it got buried by Monday. Also after the drive-time sports radio shows. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/110 "2020-02-08T14:17:39Z")
Yeah, this will not stay buried. It even has a name. “Codebreaker!” ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/111 "2020-02-10T22:36:26Z")
An interesting development. Mike Bolsinger, an ex-Blue Jay reliever, is [suing the Astros](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/mlb/ex-blue-jays-reliever-sues-astros-1.5458728) for “harming his career”. Basically he claims that their sign stealing led to his having an absolutely abysmal relief appearance with the Jays that led to his immediate termination with the team. > [@](#): > > “I don’t know if I’ve had a worse outing in my professional career,” Bolsinger told USA Today. "I remember saying, ‘It was like they knew what I was throwing. They’re laying off pitches they weren’t laying off before. It’s like they knew what was coming.’ That was the thought in my head. The details are in the link, but what happened to him in 0.1 of an inning makes for an interesting case. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/112 "2020-02-15T17:07:44Z")
[Ross Stripling forgot to use his indoor voice.](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2876382-dodgers-p-ross-stripling-says-hed-intentionally-hit-astros-batters-amid-scandal?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_medium=referral) And I’m OK with that. I’d like to see every single Dodger and Yankee pitcher go head-hunting against the Astros. Every single batter that was on the team in 2017. And none of that “plunk them on the butt” shit either. You cashed a check for cheating, you better have a damn good helmet. (Yeah, yeah - shut up. This is my fantasy.) Better yet, the Dodgers and Yankees can just refuse to play either the Astros or the Red Sox. Just forfeit the games. Think of the size of the asterisk that would make in the record books! Sigh. The daydreams of a vengeful Dodger fan… ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/113 "2020-02-15T17:31:18Z")
I’d love to see them get hit. A lot. As to the Mike Bolsinger suit, I hope he wins just to hurt the Astros, but he won’t and probably shouldn’t. Bolsiner has to prove that his terrible outing against Houston and subsequent release was the reason he didn’t get an MLB contract in 2020, but the confounding evidence against that theory is enormous: 1. Bolsinger was a marginal MLB pitcher at best. He had an okay season for the Dodgers in 2015, but was sub replacement level all the rest of the time. He had pitched badly for Toronto up to that point and was only on the team because other guys were hurt. 2. Major league teams simply don’t get rid of guys for one bad game out of eleven. That does not happen. The Blue Jays got rid of him because of all eleven games he pitched for them as a whole. Bolsinger’s numbers in the previous ten were subpar, to put it mildly. I mean, it’s possible Mike would have gotten more MLB time had he not gotten beaten up (it was also the last MLB game for another marginal Jays pitcher that day, Cesar Valdez, so I guess you never know) but MLB generally doesn’t work that way. If Bolsinger had MLB talent, he’d likely be in MLB. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/114 "2020-02-16T03:05:27Z")
[Wow; shut the fuck up, Dusty Baker](https://apnews.com/58215ce2afa84795aac24b50eadcfa2c). > [@](#): > > Dusty Baker wants action from Major League Baseball: End the criticism of the Astros from across baseball over sign stealing, and take steps to ensure pitchers don’t throw at his players. > > “It’s not good for the game, it’s not good for kids to see it, so I think both,” the new Houston manager said Saturday. “Stop the comments and also stop something before it happens.” > [@](#): > > “I’m depending on the league to try to put a stop to the seemingly premeditated retaliation that I’m hearing about,” Baker said. “In most instances in life you get kind of reprimanded for when you have premeditated anything.” > > Dodgers pitcher Ross Stripling indicated he might intentionally throw at Houston batters if he faced them. > > “We don’t start nothing,” Baker said. “This is kind of the slogan of my team: We don’t start anything — not intentionally. Guys are going to be getting hit intentionally and unintentionally. If you say you are going to drill somebody and all of the sudden you drill them, you can’t say, ‘I wasn’t trying to hit them,’ you know what I mean?” Its too late, Fuckwit; the _Asstros_ started this. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/115 "2020-02-16T03:26:21Z")
Fuck off, Dusty. You crawled into bed with those thieves and plague-carriers. Now you get their diseases. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/116 "2020-02-16T03:32:29Z")
Gotta say, I thought Carlos Correa gave the most honest comments in the Q&A the other day. But then today, he went backwards… > **[Correa responds to Bellinger, defends Astros' title](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28708747/carlos-correa-says-astros-won-world-series-fair-square)** > > Though he conceded the Astros' sign stealing was wrong, Carlos Correa said the team's 2017 World Series title was "won fair and square." “We won fair and square” and “no cheating in road games” proves this? Come on, man! ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/117 "2020-02-16T13:04:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Wow; shut the fuck up, Dusty Baker](https://apnews.com/58215ce2afa84795aac24b50eadcfa2c).Its too late, Fuckwit; the _Asstros_ started this. In that story Justin Verlander is quoted as saying “We were successful in the World Series last year." WTF? Well maybe somewhat, just not quite enough. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/118 "2020-02-16T16:47:00Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Gotta say, I thought Carlos Correa gave the most honest comments in the Q&A the other day. But then today, he went backwards… > > [Carlos Correa says Astros won World Series 'fair and square' - ESPN](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28708747/carlos-correa-says-astros-won-world-series-fair-square) > > “We won fair and square” and “no cheating in road games” proves this? Come on, man! What an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/119 "2020-02-17T18:13:43Z")
Safest bet in the coming season is that the Astros lead MLB in being hit by pitches. As long as they’re getting hit in the hips, I’m fine with that- they deserve it. I wonder if Gerrit Cole will comply if Gary Sanchez tells him to drill Altuve. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/120 "2020-02-17T18:25:53Z")
I am not a baseball expert in any way, so you can ignore what I say here. And I’m sure you will. But why not just open up the game to “anything goes”? Steal signs, don’t use signs, anticipate signs, whatever. Use electronics, don’t use electronics. Will anything different happen? If one team steals (recognizes) the signs from another, and the second steals signs from the first, who has the upper hand, if any? Has anyone proved that knowledge of the other team’s signs is an advantage? Might the outcome be nothing more than random chance, no matter what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=7)