# Sign stealing in baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [January 13, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380 "2020-01-13T23:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/121 "2020-02-17T18:35:35Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Has anyone proved that knowledge of the other team’s signs is an advantage? It’s like asking whether in football it would be an advantage for the defense to know whether the next play is a pass or a run. Essentially 100% of players, coaches, etc. would say Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/122 "2020-02-17T19:59:48Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > It’s like asking whether in football it would be an advantage for the defense to know whether the next play is a pass or a run. > > Essentially 100% of players, coaches, etc. would say Yes. Stealing signs might be worse, because instead of 11 people vs 11 people and the ability to improvise for the duration of a play, you have 1 vs 1 and all you’re doing is throwing a ball. The pitcher can’t make an adjustment once the ball leaves his hand. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/123 "2020-02-17T22:30:55Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I am not a baseball expert in any way, so you can ignore what I say here. And I’m sure you will. > > Has anyone proved that knowledge of the other team’s signs is an advantage? Might the outcome be nothing more than random chance, no matter what? The second statement demonstrates the veracity of the first one.😉 Absolutely no one questions the fact that knowing what kind of pitch is coming gives an enormous advantage to the batter. Most of the strategy of pitching is to prevent a batter guessing what kind of pitch is going to be thrown. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/124 "2020-02-17T23:05:31Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > It’s like asking whether in football it would be an advantage for the defense to know whether the next play is a pass or a run. > > Essentially 100% of players, coaches, etc. would say Yes. But what if _each_ side could read the signs of the other? Wouldn’t that make them about as equal as if \*neither \*did? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/125 "2020-02-17T23:09:50Z")
I seem to recall in the early days of baseball, a batter requested what kind of pitch E wanted the pitcher to throw. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/126 "2020-02-17T23:32:06Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The second statement demonstrates the veracity of the first one.😉 > > Absolutely no one questions the fact that knowing what kind of pitch is coming gives an enormous advantage to the batter. Most of the strategy of pitching is to prevent a batter guessing what kind of pitch is going to be thrown. I don’t know that it is most of strategy. It is important sure, but knowing Mariano Rivera was going to throw a cutter wasn’t much of an advantage. And the Astros didn’t exactly go pumpkin when they stopped doing this. The data is noisy, but I’d imagine the system helped, but not really all that much. I think it is similar to steroids in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/127 "2020-02-17T23:42:51Z")
> [@Commissioner Rob Manfred](#): > > The idea of an asterisk or asking for a piece of metal back seems like a futile act. So he thinks The Commisioner’s Trophy is just “a piece of metal”. Well, I think he should be removed from his job immediately. > **[MLB stars hammer Manfred over 'piece of metal' trophy crack](https://apnews.com/mlb-stars-hammer-manfred-over-piece-of-metal-trophy-crack-f9d8e91dacac62e3c6217c62a77028d4)** > > Baseball Commissioner Rob Manfred's reference to the World Series trophy as a “piece of metal" has angered players around the majors. ETA: MLB is really fucked up at the moment, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/128 "2020-02-18T00:45:07Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > But why not just open up the game to “anything goes”? I think the issue is that we have people called players, and they are supposed to be the ones playing the game. It’s one thing to have the non-players helping to put the players in the best position to win. It’s something else to have non-players, back office analysts, giving real time directions to players. What the astros did was cheat. They stole signs that they weren’t supposed to steal. It’s akin to stealing a peek at your opponents cards during poker, using a camera, video monitor, and a colleague to send you the info. Yes, if you walk behind me to get some more salsa from the kitchen , I hide my cards, but if you’re sitting in your seat I stop hiding them because you’re not supposed to be using a hidden camera to look at my cards. Ok make poker (or baseball) a free for all, but the game will instantly be about the technology you use instead of how you play the game. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/129 "2020-02-18T02:43:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > It’s akin to stealing a peek at your opponents cards during poker, using a camera, video monitor, and a colleague to send you the info. Yes, if you walk behind me to get some more salsa from the kitchen , I hide my cards, but if you’re sitting in your seat I stop hiding them because you’re not supposed to be using a hidden camera to look at my cards. Excellent analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/130 "2020-02-18T05:00:41Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > It is important sure, but knowing Mariano Rivera was going to throw a cutter wasn’t much of an advantage. Mariano Rivera was pretty much unique in that respect. Most starting pitchers need at least three quality pitches to be effective. Closers can have only two since they will never see the same batter twice in the same game. And a starting pitcher’s effectiveness drops every time he goes through the lineup. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/131 "2020-02-18T05:06:21Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > But what if _each_ side could read the signs of the other? Wouldn’t that make them about as equal as if \*neither \*did? At first, you would tremendously increase offense and have a different kind of game. Eventually what would happen is that you would have a kind of “arms race” as each side tried to figure out how to give signs that were unstealable with existing technology. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/132 "2020-02-18T11:53:55Z")
Saw this the other day and couldn’t help but be amused: > It’s a picture of Greg Maddux that says “No need to steal the sign. I’ll tell you what I throw. It’s an 89MPH sinker, and you won’t even swing at it.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/133 "2020-02-18T15:44:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So he thinks The Commisioner’s Trophy is just “a piece of metal”. Well, I think he should be removed from his job immediately. I think I know what he was TRYING to say, but holy shit did he do a bad job saying it. There is really no way MLB could have managed this that would have made it not be ugly, but they have managed to make it way uglier than necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/134 "2020-02-18T16:29:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I think I know what he was TRYING to say, but holy shit did he do a bad job saying it. The thing is, there’s now way to say what he was trying to say and not sound like a clueless idiot. It would be like the POTUS referring to the flag as “just a piece of cloth” when addressing war veterans. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/135 "2020-02-18T16:41:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I think I know what he was TRYING to say, but holy shit did he do a bad job saying it. > > There is really no way MLB could have managed this that would have made it not be ugly, but they have managed to make it way uglier than necessary. This is the timeline Scandal breaks and is explored: -18% attendance Red Sox bullshit: -2% attendance Manfreds further stupidity: -7% MORE attendance. That may be too inflated but they ARE going to take a big hit. That all said, taking away titles would be a big stupid mistake. Can’t wait to see the Sox lose 93 games and the utter chaos of Astros getting plunked. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/136 "2020-02-18T17:10:05Z")
Something concerning and something that will potentially be awkward is if (and 538 currently projects this as a strong possibility) Houston plays deep into October despite a season of intense scrutiny and potential on-field retribution. > [@Colibri](#): > > Absolutely no one questions the fact that knowing what kind of pitch is coming gives an enormous advantage to the batter. [Well, actually](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/if-the-astros-stole-signs-how-much-did-it-help-them/), there is some debate about how much advantage there really is. Seems like it should, but that could be a ‘just-so’ story. Some batters claim knowing the pitch in advance hurts them because their timing is thrown off. Could well be a deflategate situation (though there’s no conclusive evidence the Pats actually deflated balls there) where there’s no actual evidence of benefit to the practice despite cries to the contrary. Still wrong in any event but also kind of pathetic if it didn’t really help (except psychologically). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/137 "2020-02-18T17:36:25Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Well, actually, there is some debate about how much advantage there really is. The article shows that, although the Astros improved both at home and on the road, they improved much more at home. This would argue that the scheme was in fact pretty effective, even if other factors were involved. (And they improved only in strikeout rate, not in isolated power.) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/138 "2020-02-18T18:48:03Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > This is the timeline > > Scandal breaks and is explored: -18% attendance > > Red Sox bullshit: -2% attendance > > Manfreds further stupidity: -7% MORE attendance. > That may be too inflated but they ARE going to take a big hit. It’s wildly inflated; they aren’t going to lose 27% to anything short of cancelling another season or a comet hitting the earth. Seven percent would be a disaster. People are going to buy tickets just to boo at the Astros. I know I might. I’d bring a sign, but I’m afraid they’ll steal it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/139 "2020-02-18T19:24:27Z")
Now the Astros are being [sued on behalf](“deceptively overcharging them for season tickets while … knowingly and surreptitiously engaged in a sign stealing scheme in violation of Major League Baseball rules.”) of the season ticket holders. Suit alleges that the Astros were “deceptively overcharging them for season tickets while … knowingly and surreptitiously engaged in a sign stealing scheme in violation of Major League Baseball rules.” And thus “secretly put a deficient product on the field.” Now _this_ is a suit I can get behind. Doesn’t stand a chance, but I like where it’s coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380/140 "2020-02-18T19:37:34Z")
[A sports bettor is also suing](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/draftkings-sports-gambler-sues-mlb-for-houston-astros-sign-stealing-scandal/): > [@](#): > > Massachusetts resident Kristopher Olson is suing the league and the two teams for negligence and for violating state consumer protection rules. He placed at least 226 bets on fantasy sports platform DraftKings since 2017, but wouldn’t have done so had he known the Astros and Red Sox were violating league rules and that the game stats may have been affected, Olson’s attorney said in court documents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sign-stealing-in-baseball/846380.md?page=8)