# Silent Night Holy Night 9/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066 "2004-12-16T01:06:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/21 "2004-12-16T13:38:58Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > … either God allows actions to have consequences, no matter how vile the action might be; or God acts to negate all evil actions, which seems to me would negate the whole purpose (whatever it might be) for allowing free will in the first place. > > … I’m just sick of that particular non-argument for why a good and loving God can’t possibly exist. I agree **OtakuLoki**. I share **MGibson’s** and others’ distate for this song. (I consider myself extremely lucky for having _not_ heard it thanks to owning _way too many_ Christmas CDs) But I was also pissed to see the old “if God is good why do bad things happen” argument. I would expect any thinking person regardless of atheism or religion capable of understanding the concept of God’s treatment of free will. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/22 "2004-12-16T13:48:24Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I agree the song is vile. > > Having said that, I’d like to point out - this sort of reasoning always annoys me whenever I hear it. Free will is a vital part of human existence, and that means that human actions will occur that don’t always measure up to the standard of moral or good behavior. In my opinion, once free will is allowed for, it seems that there are two options available: either God allows actions to have consequences, no matter how vile the action might be; or God acts to negate all evil actions, which seems to me would negate the whole purpose (whatever it might be) for allowing free will in the first place. > > I’m not trying to troll, here. Or convert anyone. I’m just sick of that particular non-argument for why a good and loving God can’t possibly exist. Well, hopefully my hijack here will end quickly, but I’ve got a question for you, then. What’s the purpose of prayer, then? -Joe (In the case, “prayer” meaning asking god to make something happen, stop something from happening, etc) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/23 "2004-12-16T13:56:06Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > I agree the song is vile. > > Having said that, I’d like to point out - this sort of reasoning always annoys me whenever I hear it. Free will is a vital part of human existence, and that means that human actions will occur that don’t always measure up to the standard of moral or good behavior. In my opinion, once free will is allowed for, it seems that there are two options available: either God allows actions to have consequences, no matter how vile the action might be; or God acts to negate all evil actions, which seems to me would negate the whole purpose (whatever it might be) for allowing free will in the first place. > > I’m not trying to troll, here. Or convert anyone. I’m just sick of that particular non-argument for why a good and loving God can’t possibly exist. Just make sure that you don’t credit God when a bad consequence is avoided… After all, it is all just free will - he’s not making it happen and had nothing to do with it. And in that case, what good is he to me? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/24 "2004-12-16T13:59:20Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > What’s the purpose of prayer, then? > > -Joe > > (In the case, “prayer” meaning asking god to make something happen, stop something from happening, etc) Well, first, I have to say that in my opinion, your definition of prayer misses what the majority of what I see prayer as being. I’d read years ago, that CS Lewis said that the purpose of prayer isn’t to change God, but to change the one praying. Nothing I’ve seen or experienced since then has changed my view of how accurate that statement is. When I pray for things I pray for strength, compassion, forgiveness. Not material objects. Or at least that sort of prayer isn’t one that I’ve expected to have fulfilled. 😉 I’m well aware that many, perhaps even most, prayers are the sort you describe. But, that’s not what I see as the true purpose of prayer. There’s a lovely chasidic story that emphasizes how I think of prayer: a Jewish carter sits by the side of the road, and recites out the Hebrew alphabet, calling out to God: “O, Lord, you know the prayers, and I don’t. So I am sending you the letters to use to make the prayers for me.” -OtakuLoki ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/25 "2004-12-16T14:06:05Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Just make sure that you don’t credit God when a bad consequence is avoided… After all, it is all just free will - he’s not making it happen and had nothing to do with it. > > And in that case, what good is he to me? Hmm, so I can’t consider that God may be behind the stories of mothers lifting cars off their trapped kids? Nor can I appreciate the hand of God in the hearts and minds of the people who do SAR in horrible weather at the risk of their own lives? I’m not trying to take away from anything those individuals do, but if they use prayer and their relationship with God to do those things, and if they feel they can or could do those things with God’s assistance, why not share the credit? By the way, do you only have friends/relationships with people or things that give something to you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/26 "2004-12-16T14:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > “In the Living Years” That a funny reaction you have to this some PunditLisa. You have no problem with a father singing about his grief for his son, why not a son singing for his father? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/27 "2004-12-16T14:14:43Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I _hate_ overly maudlin songs. I finally heard the “Christmas shoes” song that people have been talking about, and my instant reaction was :rolleyes: > > I also hate “In the Living Years” and “Butterfly Kisses” because they seem to me to be deliberately written to tug at your heart strings. > > I do forgive Eric Clapton for his “If I Saw You In Heaven,” maybe because I know his grief is genuine and not some hokey gimmick. The Clapton song is called “Tears in Heaven,” and considering it’s about his son, he gets a pass on that one. Plus, although the theme is serious, the song is not maudline. It’s a lovely tune. The Christmas Shoes and The Little Girl make me want to puke all over myself. The 9/11 John Tesh song is beyond that, to a point where it’s just unwitting parody. It’s the kind I want to download and send to friends just to make them groan. Does anyone have a link? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/28 "2004-12-16T14:24:44Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Hmm, so I can’t consider that God may be behind the stories of mothers lifting cars off their trapped kids? Nor can I appreciate the hand of God in the hearts and minds of the people who do SAR in horrible weather at the risk of their own lives? I’m not trying to take away from anything those individuals do, but if they use prayer and their relationship with God to do those things, and if they feel they can or could do those things with God’s assistance, why not share the credit? > > By the way, do you only have friends/relationships with people or things that give something to you? 😉 You can consider it. I don’t buy it. And of course…it’s all about _stuff_. (If I want to get sappy, I can say they all give me something by being my friend and I don’t feel any so-called deity is giving me his/her friendship. Hell, Lady Luck spits on me regularly.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/29 "2004-12-16T14:57:00Z")
Have not heard “God in the Stairwell”, but have seen & heard various testimonies of survivors who relate some truly INTERESTING coincidences that resulted in their survival- I do believe in miraculous interventions, I also believe in God’s “non-miraculous” ever-presence & compassion with those who perished, and His wrath upon the hijackers. That said, I probably would disdain GiTS if I heard it. I can’t listen to The C’mas Shoes w/o laughing out loud at the blatant manipulation. Then again, I gotta admit that Butterfly Kisses gets to me, as does the 9/11 mix (by DJ Sammy?) of “Heaven” (light piano, female vocals, & a little girl’s letter to her Dad who perished in 9-11). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/30 "2004-12-16T15:05:35Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > That a funny reaction you have to this some PunditLisa. You have no problem with a father singing about his grief for his son, why not a son singing for his father? Maybe coz it’s crap? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/31 "2004-12-16T15:27:04Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Hmm, so I can’t consider that God may be behind the stories of mothers lifting cars off their trapped kids? Um, you realize that that story is an urban legend, right? And that the amazing strength of the mother is attributed to adrenaline, and not God, right? Anyway, I find the free will explanation of God’s allowing evil to be completely unsatisfying. It’s like saying “I could play football better than that, it’s just that I don;t want to, yeah, that’s it.” Uh huh. Back to the OP: One doesn’t need to look at Christmas to find dumb God songs. “What if God Were One of Us” springs to mind. Stupidest. Song. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/32 "2004-12-16T15:37:56Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Um, you realize that that story is an urban legend, right? And that the amazing strength of the mother is attributed to adrenaline, and not God, right? > > Anyway, I find the free will explanation of God’s allowing evil to be completely unsatisfying. It’s like saying “I could play football better than that, it’s just that I don;t want to, yeah, that’s it.” Uh huh. Even if it weren’t an Urban Legend, the fact of the matter is that omniscient omnipotent god stuck the baby under the car in the first place. Or, if you prefer, Free Will stuck that baby under the car but then god is taking away Mom’s free will by then having her pick up the car to save the baby. Either way it seems pretty damned sadistic to me. It’s like a deranged fireman starting fires so he can be the hero by rescuing people from burning buildings, but in this case said fireman (“god”) has a success rate of one in a thousand or something like that. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/33 "2004-12-16T16:15:30Z")
“I was in the cockpit of a passenger jet with a man who thought he did my will by killing himself to kill so many others. I held his shoulders and wept as he flew. I forgave him for misunderstanding, for his anger, his stubbornness; I forgave him for his wrongful certainty of his rightness as he wrought this destruction, and since I did, so should you.” ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/34 "2004-12-16T16:15:33Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Um, you realize that that story is an urban legend, right? And that the amazing strength of the mother is attributed to adrenaline, and not God, right? > > Anyway, I find the free will explanation of God’s allowing evil to be completely unsatisfying. It’s like saying “I could play football better than that, it’s just that I don;t want to, yeah, that’s it.” Uh huh. > > Back to the OP: One doesn’t need to look at Christmas to find dumb God songs. “What if God Were One of Us” springs to mind. Stupidest. Song. Ever. “Except for the pope maybe in rome” is one of the stupidist and most forced final rhymes in the history of recorded music. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/35 "2004-12-16T16:23:31Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > “Except for the pope maybe in rome” is one of the stupidist and most forced final rhymes in the history of recorded music. The first time I heard this song was when I was shopping in a CVS. I dropped my colostomy bag and said “Holy shit, you’ve got to be shitting me with that shit. That shit sucks shit.” Did I say colostomy bag? That was a typo. I meant giant economy size pack of jumbo condoms. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/36 "2004-12-16T16:25:25Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Even if it weren’t an Urban Legend, the fact of the matter is that omniscient omnipotent god stuck the baby under the car in the first place. Or, if you prefer, Free Will stuck that baby under the car but then god is taking away Mom’s free will by then having her pick up the car to save the baby. Either way it seems pretty damned sadistic to me. You would expect anything different from the God that led Abraham to the very brink of sacrificing his own son, only to stop him at the last moment? _ **Abe! Abe! Put the knife down, dude, I’m only fuckin’ with ya. Haw haw haw!** _ ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/37 "2004-12-16T16:32:33Z")
> [@Uvula Donor](#): > > You would expect anything different from the God that led Abraham to the very brink of sacrificing his own son, only to stop him at the last moment? > > _ **Abe! Abe! Put the knife down, dude, I’m only fuckin’ with ya. Haw haw haw!** _ You forgot Noah. I wonder if the thought process went something like, _“Gee, I really screwed the pooch on this. Let me just get out my deity-sized eraser and start again. But I think I got this one right, so we’ll just leave that little bit”_. He should’ve realized free will was a problem when the first thing Eve did was eat the apple he told her not to eat. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/38 "2004-12-16T16:46:10Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > The first time I heard this song was when I was shopping in a CVS. I dropped my colostomy bag and said “Holy shit, you’ve got to be shitting me with that shit. That shit sucks shit.” > > Did I say colostomy bag? That was a typo. I meant giant economy size pack of jumbo condoms. Quit making me snort coffee through my nose and onto my keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/39 "2004-12-16T16:47:47Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > “Except for the pope maybe in rome” is one of the stupidist and most forced final rhymes in the history of recorded music. Hey, hey, let’s leave Joan Osborne out of this. I \*like \* that song, especially the image of God taking the bus back to his lonely apartment. He pops open a beer (Budweiser, in the can) and settles down in his threadbare La-Z-Boy. Right on schedule, the phone rings - it’s the Pope, calling for their regular kvetch-fest. Love it. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066/40 "2004-12-16T16:50:59Z")
If God exists, he’s (she’s, it’s) one brutal, sadistic son-of-a-bitch. Songs that honor such make me sick to my stomach. About the OP: Sentimental, tacky crap. Utter dreck. I can’t think of anything nicer to say. If there is a hell, I hope there’s a cozy section reserved for people who create manipulative abominations such as that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-night-holy-night-9-11/280066.md?page=3)