# Silent Sam is down! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960 "2018-08-21T10:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/201 "2018-08-23T20:12:30Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I’m trying to reconcile what you’re saying with [this article](https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article201038639.html) from February of this year that states: > > I mean, this is the first link that came up for me on Google. Do you attempt even the barest minimum amount of research before loudly proclaiming your “facts”? Yes, good cite. But the town and the regents didnt do so. Those were individuals, acting on their own. I was talking about that the Regents or the town had failed to petition. \* “One of the petitioners, Heather Redding, a 39-year-old Orange County resident, said there is nothing in state law that prevents private citizens from petitioning the commission.”\* However, in any case, the Comm had not ruled against moving the statue, it was still being considered. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/202 "2018-08-23T20:13:48Z")
Of course it was. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/203 "2018-08-23T20:18:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Given that the very white son of one of my friends was there in the crowd without getting shouted at, and given the [images of the crowd of protestors that tore it down](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45257961) (including plenty of blondes), I call bullshit. If the cite said that there were no white protestors, you would be correct to call bullshit. It doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/204 "2018-08-23T20:20:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s a pretty dumb summary. That’s a dumb rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/205 "2018-08-23T20:23:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, good cite. But the town and the regents didnt do so. Those were individuals, acting on their own. I was talking about that the Regents or the town had failed to petition. Oh, when you said “locals”, I assumed you meant locals. I didn’t realize that was code for regents and the town. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/206 "2018-08-23T20:24:02Z")
“you can petition!” “we did” “well…not you” ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/207 "2018-08-23T20:25:38Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > “, this particular mob wasn’t especially tolerant, at least in the words of one UNC student who wrote to me about the situation: > I am a freshman at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. … Tonight, students tore down a confederate statue on campus that is known as Silent Sam. “Peaceful protesters” acted just like their name suggests and destroyed this piece of history, chanting “black power” and “go away cops” when police arrived on the scene. I walked by to see what I figured was going to be national news and that was probably not the smartest thing for me to do. Almost immediately, they started coming at me, yelling “get out of here whitey,” which I found ironic as they were holding a sign that said “from Durham to Charlottesville to the White House, tear down racism.” Needless to say I ran back to my dorm pretty darn fast.” > > From here: > > [https://www.dailywire.com/news/34785/university-north-carolina-protesters-knock-over-ben-shapiro?amp](https://www.dailywire.com/news/34785/university-north-carolina-protesters-knock-over-ben-shapiro?amp) Wow! That’s a thing that Definitely Happened and was in no way manufactured or exaggerated! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/208 "2018-08-23T20:28:32Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Oh, when you said “locals”, I assumed you meant locals. I didn’t realize that was code for regents and the town. That’s true. We had been discussing “the will of the people” and I was saying that the various entities, the town, the regents- had not taken any of the various legal steps to remove it. However, yes, at no time do I wish to imply\* that not one single individual \*objected to the statue, as clearly that is false, since a good number tore it down. Obviously, \*individuals \*objected. However, the regents were not stopped from trying to remove the statue by legal means, since they had several avenues- none of which they went for. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/209 "2018-08-23T20:34:41Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I would sum it up like this: > > Eager, self important Social Justice Warriors, vandalize statue, shout racial epithets, threaten police, endanger and disrupt rather than seek their aims peacefully and have a good time with their protest party, because it is fun and righteous and involved. That is the point. > > They get away with it because it’s a confederate, and anybody that points out that you shouldn’t go around vandalizing stuff and taking the law into your own hands can simply be accused of racism. > Meanwhile, somebody who has been trying to shut down an abortion clinic, sees this and suddenly gets a “great idea.” > > The actual white supremacists say “Hey, they took the law into their own hands. Let’s get some payback” > > But the statue is down. The ends justify the means, and that’s the only consideration that matters. A better summary: Racist, ancestor-worshipping Neo-Confederates, determined to keep their revisionistic, holocaust-denier level version of history desperately put up multiple needless roadblocks to the removal of their white-supremacy shrines in the hopes that the anger generated over their recent fellow traveler’s mass shootings of minorities might blow over and thus save ‘muh hist-ory’. Those who aren’t inbred, yee-haa, General Lee rimming scumbag racists had become increasingly annoyed at the deliberate power-seizing efforts that were designed to keep the monuments of unrepentant racism in place got more and more fed up with a system aimed more at protecting Lost Causer’s on the other side of the state’s poor fee-fees than the people who had to actually to see this unadulterated temple of classic Stormfront history. Actions were taken. Nobody was hurt. Some possible Union rules may have been violated. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/210 "2018-08-23T20:55:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s true. We had been discussing “the will of the people” and I was saying that the various entities, the town, the regents- had not taken any of the various legal steps to remove it. > > However, yes, at no time do I wish to imply\* that not one single individual \*objected to the statue, as clearly that is false, since a good number tore it down. Then this invalidates your entire argument that legals means existed for those desiring to have it removed, and they failed to take them. If you want to argue that the regents are lazy or racist, go for it. But that’s not the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/211 "2018-08-23T21:39:21Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > A better summary: > > Racist, ancestor-worshipping Neo-Confederates, determined to keep their revisionistic, holocaust-denier level version of history desperately put up multiple needless roadblocks to the removal of their white-supremacy shrines in the hopes that the anger generated over their recent fellow traveler’s mass shootings of minorities might blow over and thus save ‘muh hist-ory’. > > Those who aren’t inbred, yee-haa, General Lee rimming scumbag racists had become increasingly annoyed at the deliberate power-seizing efforts that were designed to keep the monuments of unrepentant racism in place got more and more fed up with a system aimed more at protecting Lost Causer’s on the other side of the state’s poor fee-fees than the people who had to actually to see this unadulterated temple of classic Stormfront history. > > Actions were taken. Nobody was hurt. Some possible Union rules may have been violated. That’s not a very good summary. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/212 "2018-08-23T21:42:06Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > A better summary: Technically better, but not by much; still, it’s a perfect mirror to Scylla’s fact-free namecalling screed, and I appreciate that :). > [@TroutMan](#): > > Then this invalidates your entire argument that legals means existed for those desiring to have it removed, and they failed to take them. > > If you want to argue that the regents are lazy or racist, go for it. But that’s not the topic at hand. You may now be understanding why I chose not to engage with **DrDeth’s** strategy of making broad, cite-free claims, and then demanding that anyone who disagrees with him cite their disagreement, at which point he’ll change his broad, cite-free claim just enough that their cite doesn’t apply, and rinse and repeat. He ain’t my choreographer. You may want to ask whether you want him to be yours. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/213 "2018-08-23T21:49:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You may now be understanding why I chose not to engage with **DrDeth’s** strategy of making broad, cite-free claims, and then demanding that anyone who disagrees with him cite their disagreement, at which point he’ll change his broad, cite-free claim just enough that their cite doesn’t apply, and rinse and repeat. > > He ain’t my choreographer. You may want to ask whether you want him to be yours. Yeah, I understood the reasons. I’d like to say I responded for the sake of those who might accept his claims, so they could see it clearly as well. But mostly I just couldn’t help myself. But you’re right, I’m done now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/214 "2018-08-23T21:57:44Z")
I appreciate your offering that cite, though, don’t want to sound like I don’t. I did a little research myself before posting, to make sure he was spouting the nonsense I thought he was spouting. I just didn’t want to get trapped into the dance I knew he would try to trap me in. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/215 "2018-08-23T21:58:35Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > A better summary: > > Racist, ancestor-worshipping Neo-Confederates, determined to keep their revisionistic, holocaust-denier level version of history desperately put up multiple needless roadblocks to the removal of their white-supremacy shrines in the hopes that the anger generated over their recent fellow traveler’s mass shootings of minorities might blow over and thus save ‘muh hist-ory’. > > Those who aren’t inbred, yee-haa, General Lee rimming scumbag racists had become increasingly annoyed at the deliberate power-seizing efforts that were designed to keep the monuments of unrepentant racism in place got more and more fed up with a system aimed more at protecting Lost Causer’s on the other side of the state’s poor fee-fees than the people who had to actually to see this unadulterated temple of classic Stormfront history. > > Actions were taken. Nobody was hurt. Some possible Union rules may have been violated. You are arguing that the ends justified the means which is one of the all time worst arguments. It’s closely followed only by “at least nobody got hurt.” Which, I note, you Aldo use. If someone fires a gun into a school but misses anybody is that ok? Similarly, because a bunch of idiots toppled a multi ton statue in the middle of their protest party without killing anybody, that doesn’t mean it was good. You also failed to mention how the ignorant rednecks putting up the roadblocks didn’t do a very good job, leaving two exceptions one of which the Governor of the state specifically suggested. The idea that they were legally blocked is just wrong. Letting yourself believe otherwise is dangerously self-deceptive. Most importantly you fail to forget that liberal types when they break the law go ahead and topple statues during protest parties (at least before Antifa.) White supremacists and Nazis drive cars into parades and kill people. If one takes extralegal remedy to their legal remedies you risk provoking them to their version of this game. The social covenant is pretty simple. My kids understood this by the 2nd grade. You don’t get to break the law just because you are unhappy with the law. If you do it, everybody else does it and you undermine the tenuous bonds of society by which we all survive. You break the law only in the direst and most extreme of circumstances when all else has failed. Watching Nazis get punched is fun. Watching them punch back, like they did a year ago in Charlotte is not. These SJWs just upped the ante. They did it needlessly and stupidly. So, no, not such a good summary. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/216 "2018-08-23T22:14:32Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Most importantly you fail to forget that liberal types when they break the law go ahead and topple statues during protest parties (at least before Antifa.) White supremacists and Nazis drive cars into parades and kill people. This is a great thing to fail to forget, and I encourage you to fail to forget it, too. The implication, that Nazis are totally law-abiding motherfuckers until they see someone sit at a lunch counter they’re not supposed to sit at, at which point they commit murder, is patently idiotic. “Fail to forget” is awkward phrasing, though. Maybe just **remember** that there’s no equivalence between a peaceful protest and murder, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/217 "2018-08-23T22:30:00Z")
LHD: Yeah, that’s pretty exactly a Nazi thing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/218 "2018-08-23T22:32:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > LHD: > > Yeah, that’s pretty exactly a Nazi thing. Antecedents, man, antecedents! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/219 "2018-08-23T23:02:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Any independent observer would say that North Carolina is a democracy. If having to show ID to vote means not a democracy then Canada, Brazil, France, Germany, Israel, and Norway are not democracies. It goes far beyond that, as the article points out… > [@Scylla](#): > > [https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/articles/news\_and\_politics/politics/2017/01/the\_bogus\_claim\_that\_north\_carolina\_is\_no\_longer\_a\_democracy.html](https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/01/the_bogus_claim_that_north_carolina_is_no_longer_a_democracy.html) > > No, I don’t buy the “North Carolina is a totalitarian regime and therefore the good citizens had no choice but to take the law into their own hands,” argument. > > I live in Pa which apparently ranks far lower than North Carolina. > > If I trust the the study you cited I should probably flee to North Korea to protect my political freedom. You are straw manning: nobody called North Carolina a totalitarian regime. It was characterized as analogous to Indonesia. _::Reads Slate Link::_ That said, point retracted and your win. The study appears to be malformed. I’m calling off the revolution. Pack it up and go home boys! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/220 "2018-08-24T00:17:17Z")
Measure for Measure had an opinion, integrated new data from an opposing source, adjusted his opinion accordingly. Sincerely, that is rare and admirable these days. I wish I did that better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=12)