# Silent Sam is down! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960 "2018-08-21T10:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/221 "2018-08-24T00:24:51Z")
Is that even allowed on this board? Should somebody report him? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/222 "2018-08-24T00:38:46Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Then this invalidates your entire argument that legals means existed for those desiring to have it removed, and they failed to take them. > > If you want to argue that the regents are lazy or racist, go for it. But that’s not the topic at hand. I am sorry if I led you to that conclusion, but I was talking about governmental or quasi- governmental bodies. \*That was the context. \* The context was that the “will of the people” was being subverted by the racist Jim Crow politics in the State assembly, and while I will agree to the “racist and Jim Crow” part, I can’t agree to the _will of the people_, as I have seen nothing that shows that a majority of the people wanted it gone. Neither the town nor the regents lifted a finger to attempt to remove the statue. The **Governor** even said the Regents could do it \*without \*petitioning the Historical comm. So that Law was no real bar to it’s removal. Yes, individuals petitioned the Historical comm, and that’s great, but while the Comm was considering their petition, the statue was torn down by a mob. There _were_ lawful, peaceful ways to move Silent Sam. But other than a couple of individuals, no attempt was made by any elected group representing the People. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/223 "2018-08-24T00:40:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Technically better, but not by much; still, it’s a perfect mirror to Scylla’s fact-free namecalling screed, and I appreciate that :). > You may now be understanding why I chose not to engage with **DrDeth’s** strategy of making broad, cite-free claims, and then demanding that anyone who disagrees with him cite their disagreement, at which point he’ll change his broad, cite-free claim just enough that their cite doesn’t apply, and rinse and repeat. I gave \*several cites, \*. So, calling my claims “cite free” is false. Where are your cites? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/224 "2018-08-24T00:43:00Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > That said, point retracted and your win. The study appears to be malformed. I’m calling off the revolution. Pack it up and go home boys! Yeah, I read the criticism of the study, and their response to that criticism. I wish I hadn’t given that cite earlier, TBH, because it turns out to be poor evidence of the undemocratic shenanigans going on in NC. But those shenanigans definitely exist, and they’re pretty bad even compared to other states. I’ve started several threads about them in Elections, if y’all want to go search, and there’ve been oodles of lawsuits over voter suppression and gerrymandering and misleading amendments on the ballot in an attempt to remove the separation of powers and so on and so forth. Relying, as DrDeth does, on Phil Berger for a clear view of anything in North Carolina politics betrays a basic unfamiliarity of what’s been going on here over the last decade. So, yeah: although we’re not Cuba, we’re not living in a functioning democracy here in North Carolina. Nor were we in 1913, nor were we in 1965. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/225 "2018-08-24T01:12:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I gave a cite: > [https://www.cbs17.com/news/top-lawmaker-says-no-plans-to-change-nc-law-protecting-confederate-monuments\_20180307103709162/1016882995](https://www.cbs17.com/news/top-lawmaker-says-no-plans-to-change-nc-law-protecting-confederate-monuments_20180307103709162/1016882995) > > \*State lawmakers passed Senate Bill 22 in 2015. It stops the removal of monuments, including Confederate monuments, without the approval of the State Historical Commission. > … > > Senate President Pro Tem Phil Berger said Friday he has not been asked to bring the law back before the body. > … > > The law provides an exception when “a building inspector or similar official” determines it poses a threat to public safety. > > Governor Roy Cooper told UNC that is grounds for the university to remove it. > > “We’ve had our legal people look at it,” Cooper said. “I’ve looked at it. I believe that exception is there.”"\* > > So there is a cite … > > \*\* > Measure for Measure\*\* gave a cite: > [http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/2017/09/05/another-historical-commission-member-weighs-monument-removal/](http://www.ncpolicywatch.com/2017/09/05/another-historical-commission-member-weighs-monument-removal/) > > … So **Left Hand of Dorkness** , what’s that? A cite, is it not? So, you have claimed three times I give no cites, even tho saw this cite? So \*saying \*I posted no cites, while \*knowing \*I posted cites- what would that be called? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/226 "2018-08-24T01:58:13Z")
Some interesting points about the commission in this article: > **[Confederate monuments will stay in place at NC capitol after new vote](https://abcnews.go.com/US/confederate-monuments-stay-place-nc-capitol-vote/story?id=57331520)** > > A new vote by a state commission means that three confederate statues will not be removed from the capitol in Raleigh. > [@](#): > > The commission resolved that because of a state law that was put in place in 2015 barring the removal of such statues, they were “unable to recommend the removal or relocation of the three Confederate monuments because removal or relocation is not required to preserve these three monuments.” > [@](#): > > The stipulations made in that 2015 law that would allow for the removal of a Confederate monument include the protection of the monument or if it were moved to a place of equal prominence. The commission seems to be a bit of a sham when it comes to removal. They seems authorized only to shuffle them around. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/227 "2018-08-24T02:03:08Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Some interesting points about the commission in this article: > > [Confederate monuments will stay in place at NC capitol after new vote - ABC News](https://abcnews.go.com/US/confederate-monuments-stay-place-nc-capitol-vote/story?id=57331520) > > The commission seems to be a bit of a sham when it comes to removal. They seems authorized only to shuffle them around. Yup. And the legislature has been very clear over the past decade or so that they’re moving to fill all the boards and commissions they can with party loyalists, and also moving to remove power from urban (and more progressive) areas of the state. There is no reason to expect that the commission would honor the wishes of Chapel Hillians, nor that the governor would have found himself able to exercise any authority to remove the statues. This is all ignorant armchair quarterbacking, telling a movement fifty years in the making that they didn’t do it right, without conducting any real research first to find out what they tried or the conditions in which they operated. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/228 "2018-08-24T10:22:53Z")
Let’s just sum up for DrDeth. The Governor of the state requested that statues be moved to a different location and was denied because the move wasn’t required to preserve the statues. So, some board of Regents is going to make the same request on a trumped up ‘public safety’ claim and get the nod? As far as I’m concerned, we have identified 3 more statues for angry mobs to tear down. Perhaps then, the Commission will get the idea that moving these monuments to racism someplace safe, like a Museum of Racist Assholes, will be required to preserve them. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/229 "2018-08-24T12:34:07Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Let’s just sum up for DrDeth. The Governor of the state requested that statues be moved to a different location and was denied because the move wasn’t required to preserve the statues. So, some board of Regents is going to make the same request on a trumped up ‘public safety’ claim and get the nod? > > As far as I’m concerned, we have identified 3 more statues for angry mobs to tear down. Perhaps then, the Commission will get the idea that moving these monuments to racism someplace safe, like a Museum of Racist Assholes, will be required to preserve them. A few felony convictions might deter mob action as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/230 "2018-08-24T13:35:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A few felony convictions might deter mob action as well. Oh yes, that couldn’t possibly backfire. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/231 "2018-08-24T14:30:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, I read the criticism of the study, and their response to that criticism. I wish I hadn’t given that cite earlier, TBH, because it turns out to be poor evidence of the undemocratic shenanigans going on in NC. > > But those shenanigans definitely exist, and they’re pretty bad even compared to other states. I’ve started several threads about them in Elections, if y’all want to go search, and there’ve been oodles of lawsuits over voter suppression and gerrymandering and misleading amendments on the ballot in an attempt to remove the separation of powers and so on and so forth. Relying, as DrDeth does, on Phil Berger for a clear view of anything in North Carolina politics betrays a basic unfamiliarity of what’s been going on here over the last decade. > > So, yeah: although we’re not Cuba, we’re not living in a functioning democracy here in North Carolina. Nor were we in 1913, nor were we in 1965. What is your standard for a functioning democracy? It sounds like one where you approve of the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/232 "2018-08-24T15:13:46Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What is your standard for a functioning democracy? It sounds like one where you approve of the outcome. a winnar is you, puddleglum. Take your victory for engaging in serious, thoughtful discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/233 "2018-08-24T16:33:54Z")
[An interesting article from an alum](https://www.wral.com/michael-bryant-hicks-if-silent-sam-returns-to-his-pedestal-this-alum-will-move-on/17791244/): **If ‘Silent Sam’ Returns to his Hedestal, This Alum Will Move On.** > [@](#): > > The toppling of Silent Sam set me to thinking about how as a student at UNC I always felt obligated to accommodate white supremacy as enshrined in the monuments and the names of campus buildings. I came to Carolina from a long lineage of poor black tobacco workers and cleaning ladies, the first to obtain a university degree. I was doing well just to be allowed to attend Carolina. I felt grateful, the kind of sentiment that perhaps all Carolina students should hold, yet the feeling some minority students carry when it is made clear to us that we are guests in someone else’s home, a home where the people who terrorized our ancestors are celebrated across the physical landscape. > > Bless those vandals. I don’t condone vandalism, but I do celebrate their sense of ownership of Carolina. A sense of ownership I wager most black students at the university don’t share even today. (It appears most of the protesters were not black students. My guess is black kids at Carolina know what can happen to them if they go around pulling statues down.) He noticed the same thing I noticed about the protesters, superficially, but pointed out something I hadn’t considered, about WHY there were relatively few black students among the protesters. It’s even more reason to call bullshit on **Scylla’s** anonymous student who claims someone shouted “Get out of here, whitey!” at him. I mean, for fuck’s sake, who even talks like that? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/234 "2018-08-24T16:43:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [An interesting article from an alum](https://www.wral.com/michael-bryant-hicks-if-silent-sam-returns-to-his-pedestal-this-alum-will-move-on/17791244/): > > **If ‘Silent Sam’ Returns to his Hedestal, This Alum Will Move On.** > He noticed the same thing I noticed about the protesters, superficially, but pointed out something I hadn’t considered, about WHY there were relatively few black students among the protesters. > > It’s even more reason to call bullshit on **Scylla’s** anonymous student who claims someone shouted “Get out of here, whitey!” at him. I mean, for fuck’s sake, who even talks like that? It sounds a lot like the crap the white supremcists were making up when Black Panther was in the theaters. All the stories of white guys being threatened by black patrons at the ticket booth. Not a scrap of evidence, not even a shaky smartphone video. But taken as gospel among certain social media slugs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/235 "2018-08-24T18:22:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yup. And the legislature has been very clear over the past decade or so that they’re moving to fill all the boards and commissions they can with party loyalists, and also moving to remove power from urban (and more progressive) areas of the state. There is no reason to expect that the commission would honor the wishes of Chapel Hillians, nor that the governor would have found himself able to exercise any authority to remove the statues. > > This is all ignorant armchair quarterbacking, telling a movement fifty years in the making that they didn’t do it right, without conducting any real research first to find out what they tried or the conditions in which they operated. They could have removed it before 2015. And neither Chapel hill or the Univ even tried. The Governor said they can remove it _now_ as it is a hazard. This is all ignorant armchair quarterbacking, telling other posters that they didn’t post cistes when they did, without conducting any research at all, just vague insults. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/236 "2018-08-24T18:24:11Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Let’s just sum up for DrDeth. The Governor of the state requested that statues be moved to a different location and was denied because the move wasn’t required to preserve the statues. So, some board of Regents is going to make the same request on a trumped up ‘public safety’ claim and get the nod? No, the Governor said they would remove it NOW,\* without\* the Commission’s approval, as it was a hazard. Which clearly it was. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/237 "2018-08-24T19:32:39Z")
the GOP who now runs the state of NC are all about “local control” and small government. Of course that does not apply when local governments want to do something they don’t like - which led to the infamous HB2 law based on a Charlotte law. HB2 was only changed because of pressure from business and the NCAA. In the case of Silent Sam the NC GOP are already saying if it does not go back up, then UNC funds get cut. So we will see if UNC backs down and puts it back or if there is a fight. The UNC system board of governors is about 80% GOP members since they are all appointed by the GOP run state assembly/senate. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/238 "2018-08-24T20:14:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A few felony convictions might deter mob action as well. Interesting how the people want felony convictions and heavy police intervention for tearing down a racist statue don’t have a similar sense of outrage over the same University and their history of letting people get away with rape. The fact that outrage seems to be limited to ‘they violated a racist statue’ and not ‘they violated a living person’ is… interesting. [Feds: UNC-CH mishandled campus sex assault cases](https://www.wral.com/feds-unc-ch-mishandled-campus-sex-assault-cases/17655649/) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/239 "2018-08-24T20:17:42Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Interesting how the people want felony convictions and heavy police intervention for tearing down a racist statue don’t have a similar sense of outrage over the same University and their history of letting people get away with rape. The fact that outrage seems to be limited to ‘they violated a racist statue’ and not ‘they violated a living person’ is… interesting. [Feds: UNC-CH mishandled campus sex assault cases](https://www.wral.com/feds-unc-ch-mishandled-campus-sex-assault-cases/17655649/) My guess is because one is a monument honoring the greatness of white men, and the other is simply a bunch of whiny women. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/240 "2018-08-31T18:30:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So **Left Hand of Dorkness** , what’s that? A cite, is it not? So, you have claimed three times I give no cites, even tho saw this cite? So \*saying \*I posted no cites, while \*knowing \*I posted cites- what would that be called? This was just brought to my attention. While couched cutely, it’s still an accusation of lying and against the rules. Warning issued. Please don’t do it again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=13)