# Silent Sam is down! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960 "2018-08-21T10:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/101 "2018-08-22T15:12:59Z")
Let’s compromise… put the statue back on the pedestal (a 2-foot high replica) next to a life-size statue of MLK. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/102 "2018-08-22T15:14:47Z")
I also like the proposal to carve King’s face on Stone Mountain, looking down on Davis, Lee, and Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/103 "2018-08-22T15:29:33Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Assumes facts not in evidence. > At any rate, we have a system for dealing with this. Put the vandals on trial in front of a jury of their peers. If the jury wants to convict them, they will. Then the judge can pronounce the sentence, publicly, so all the people of his/her community know the judge’s position on this. Then the government can break open their coffers, design and replace this monument with an identical one, celebrating the soldiers who fought in the War of Northern Aggression. > > All of the “I’m not a racist” Republicans should go ahead and do the “right” thing, to put everything back the way it was and punish these awful criminals. Put your names on it, sign on the bottom line that you want THAT statue back up, and want to punish those who took it down. Own it. You say that like it’s some scary thing. Arresting, fining, and restoring would send a message that working within the system is the proper method. That’s such a terrifying concept to “own.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/104 "2018-08-22T15:29:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think I agree with this. > > If there was no realistic legal path, then perhaps. > > There is none that I can think of. One of the reasons I generally doubt the seriousness of much or most anti-abortion sentiment in the US, is that the protests are mostly very mild, and the everyday acceptance (by actions, not words) of present circumstances with regards to abortion is so widespread, even among those who identify as pro-life. If I truly believed thousands of American children were being legally murdered every day/week/month, I don’t think I could live with myself unless I was literally risking life and limb to change society and save these children. Thankfully, it appears that either most pro-life people actually can live with themselves without doing this, or they don’t really consider it the same as “thousands of children being legally murdered every day/week/month”. > > EDIT: **LHoD** made a similar argument while I was writing this, but it’s different enough that I’ll leave mine up. I can live with myself, because I recognize that the price of an ordered society is the relinquishment of the unfettered right to decide for myself what the law should require, and enforce it myself when governments don’t adopt my views. Obviously you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/105 "2018-08-22T15:31:32Z")
I am no fan of the statue and no fan of the mob action that vandalizes and destroys property and circumvents the public process that is dealing with these reminders of our collective past. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/106 "2018-08-22T15:32:09Z")
Slavery was legal too. Obviously there was no moral course of action available except to live with it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/107 "2018-08-22T15:33:18Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > the public process that is dealing with these reminders of our collective past. Is it really doing that? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/108 "2018-08-22T15:44:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can live with myself, because I recognize that the price of an ordered society is the relinquishment of the unfettered right to decide for myself what the law should require, and enforce it myself when governments don’t adopt my views. > > Obviously you don’t. It’s not unfettered - each of us decides what fetters we’re willing to place on ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/109 "2018-08-22T15:46:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You say that like it’s some scary thing. Arresting, fining, and restoring would send a message that working within the system is the proper method. That’s such a terrifying concept to “own.” Wanna bet that they won’t? I predict a misdemeanor charge or two, a “we decry these unlawful actions” or three, and that statue NEVER goes back up. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/110 "2018-08-22T15:47:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Slavery was legal too. Obviously there was no moral course of action available except to live with it. Of course there isn’t. Slavery wasn’t just legal, it was constitutional. A slave escaping from his rightful owners was breaking the law and the constitution, and that is the lowest form of morality imaginable, far far worse than pulling down a statue celebrating it. If they wanted freedom, their proper course should have been to vote for it, not just take their own unfettered idea of what the law should be. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/111 "2018-08-22T15:47:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Whatever, dude. On the one hand there are your cherry-picked and uncited statistics. On the other hand is a broad pattern that’s led to outrage from judges who have studied the case. > > Increased black voter participation, and voter suppression, are clearly not contradictory, as a moment’s thought will tell you. The purpose of voter suppression is to limit voter participation. The fact that voter participation is rising during that time and that it is higher than in the rest of the country is evidence that either there is no voter suppression or that it is not working. In either case it shows that the idea that North Carolina is not a real democracy is foolish. If North Carolina is not a democracy than none of the other states are and neither is our country. Would this make it okay for people to knock down the MLK statue in DC or Lincoln’s? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/112 "2018-08-22T16:03:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Slavery was legal too. Obviously there was no moral course of action available except to live with it. Slavery was an evil so great that it justified breaking the law. It is appalling to equate an ugly (both in appearance and what it stands for) statue with the institution of slavery. It is irrational to suggest that they both require the same response. Further, this is not a clear cut moral issue. Many, including Condeleeza Rice feel that we should not destroy our history that we don’t like, or are ashamed of, but should keep it in front of us, as a reminder. The Taliban and Iraq have both destroyed monuments of historical and architectural value because it conflicted with their ideology. Vandalization and mob action, deny these viewpoints their fair consideration. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/113 "2018-08-22T16:08:13Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Slavery was an evil so great that it justified breaking the law. Explain that to **Bricker**. > [@](#): > > Vandalization and mob action, deny these viewpoints their fair consideration. Jim Crow and white supremacism, not to mention slavery and treason, should have their fair consideration. Got it. If these objects really were universally considered to be relics of bygone days when our ancestors practiced primitive beliefs we all now know to be abhorrent, you might have a point. But you’d also have to concede that they belong in museums, not in people’s faces every day. Unfortunately we aren’t there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/114 "2018-08-22T16:08:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Is it really doing that? :dubious: Well yes. This has been an ongoing public debate and over 110 confederate statues have come down peacefully and lawfully as a result of this, according to Newsweek. > **[More Than 110 Confederate Monuments Removed Since 2015](https://www.newsweek.com/more-110-confederate-monuments-have-been-removed-across-us-2015-splc-says-958825)** > > Trump has previously slammed the removal of such monuments, calling them "beautiful." So it really can’t be said that there wasn’t a peaceful and lawful alternative to mob action and vandalism in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/115 "2018-08-22T16:11:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > So it really can’t be said that there wasn’t a peaceful and lawful alternative to mob action and vandalism in this instance. Except for the (regressive and undemocratic) NC legislature \*outlawing \*their removal just in time to stop it. So what options are there? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/116 "2018-08-22T16:23:42Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Slavery was an evil so great that it justified breaking the law. The symbols of the era of white supremacy may not be as evil as slavery, but they are very, very odious. > [@](#): > > It is appalling to equate an ugly (both in appearance and what it stands for) statue with the institution of slavery. It is irrational to suggest that they both require the same response. They did not garner the same response. Pulling down the statue is by no means a Civil War. > [@](#): > > Further, this is not a clear cut moral issue. Many, including Condeleeza Rice feel that we should not destroy our history that we don’t like, or are ashamed of, but should keep it in front of us, as a reminder. The Taliban and Iraq have both destroyed monuments of historical and architectural value because it conflicted with their ideology. Yeah, yeah yeah, keep trying to make that Taliban comparison. This is blowing the Swastika up at the Zeppelinfeld, not blowing up ancient statues of other deities. The only way this is a valid comparison is if you consider these statues to be the gods of Neo-confederate ancestor worship. In which case the slave loving religion needs to die faster. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/117 "2018-08-22T16:27:08Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Many, including Condeleeza Rice feel that we should not destroy our history that we don’t like, or are ashamed of, but should keep it in front of us, as a reminder. The Taliban and Iraq have both destroyed monuments of historical and architectural value because it conflicted with their ideology. If you want to remind yourself of your country’s shameful history, you put up statues of the people harmed by it, or people who fought against it, NOT the people who perpetrated it and fought to continue it. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/118 "2018-08-22T16:29:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Except for the (regressive and undemocratic) NC legislature \*outlawing \*their removal just in time to stop it. So what options are there? That’s a great question. I think that’s a bad law,bot for what it stands for, and how it was written. One could attack it for what it stands for, and could attempt to get it changed, or one could attack the way it was written and attempt to use one of the two exceptions built into the law that allow removal. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/119 "2018-08-22T16:30:04Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I am no fan of the statue and no fan of the mob action that vandalizes and destroys property and circumvents the public process that is dealing with these reminders of our collective past. There is no public process for dealing with this reminder of our white supremacist past, because the state legislature of North Carolina passed a law making it illegal to remove monuments to white supremacy. There are a lot of people in this thread who are upset that a bunch of people extra-legally knocked over a monument to white supremacy, but they seemingly have no opinion whatsoever that there’s a law making it illegal to remove monuments to white supremacy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/120 "2018-08-22T16:34:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If Martin Luther King, Jr were alive today, would he condone this action? I don’t think so. Was it you who asked earlier which side you thought someone was on. I’m on the side that I think MLK would have been on. Would George Washington have condoned the guerilla warfare that the Vietnamese fought against the French colonial army, or would he have believed that the only ethical response to an occupying colonial military would be to stand against them in formation and fight in open warfare? Would Jesus have condoned Pussy Riot’s disruption of a Russian Orthodox Church to protest the corruption of religious leaders, or would he have insisted that the proper response of idealistic youth to religious corruption was to work within the system and try to achieve change through the proper channels? Would Thomas Jefferson have condoned the appalling conditions under which modern agricultural workers labor, or would he have insisted that a farmer provide workers with a living wage and living conditions that ensured dignity and a meaningful degree of liberty? I mean, sure, you can argue that we shouldn’t listen to King. You can argue that his ideals are outdated. But you’re gonna have an uphill fight if you want to argue that King would have opposed: a) Righting a racist wrong, b) Through nonviolent means, c) After all legal channels have been thoroughly exhausted. I refer you to King’s [Letter from a Birmingham Jail](http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html), written after he was arrested yet again for violating a law he considered unjust. These paragraphs in particular apply: > [@MLK](#): > > You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city’s white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative. > > In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action. We have gone through all these steps in Birmingham. There can be no gainsaying the fact that racial injustice engulfs this community. Birmingham is probably the most thoroughly segregated city in the United States. Its ugly record of brutality is widely known. Negroes have experienced grossly unjust treatment in the courts. There have been more unsolved bombings of Negro homes and churches in Birmingham than in any other city in the nation. These are the hard, brutal facts of the case. On the basis of these conditions, Negro leaders sought to negotiate with the city fathers. But the latter consistently refused to engage in good faith negotiation. > > Then, last September, came the opportunity to talk with leaders of Birmingham’s economic community. In the course of the negotiations, certain promises were made by the merchants–for example, to remove the stores’ humiliating racial signs. On the basis of these promises, the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and the leaders of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights agreed to a moratorium on all demonstrations. As the weeks and months went by, we realized that we were the victims of a broken promise. A few signs, briefly removed, returned; the others remained. As in so many past experiences, our hopes had been blasted, and the shadow of deep disappointment settled upon us. We had no alternative except to prepare for direct action, whereby we would present our very bodies as a means of laying our case before the conscience of the local and the national community. Mindful of the difficulties involved, we decided to undertake a process of self purification. We began a series of workshops on nonviolence, and we repeatedly asked ourselves: “Are you able to accept blows without retaliating?” “Are you able to endure the ordeal of jail?” We decided to schedule our direct action program for the Easter season, realizing that except for Christmas, this is the main shopping period of the year. Knowing that a strong economic-withdrawal program would be the by product of direct action, we felt that this would be the best time to bring pressure to bear on the merchants for the needed change. > > Then it occurred to us that Birmingham’s mayoral election was coming up in March, and we speedily decided to postpone action until after election day. When we discovered that the Commissioner of Public Safety, Eugene “Bull” Connor, had piled up enough votes to be in the run off, we decided again to postpone action until the day after the run off so that the demonstrations could not be used to cloud the issues. Like many others, we waited to see Mr. Connor defeated, and to this end we endured postponement after postponement. Having aided in this community need, we felt that our direct action program could be delayed no longer. > > You may well ask: “Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn’t negotiation a better path?” You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation. Too long has our beloved Southland been bogged down in a tragic effort to live in monologue rather than dialogue. Sure, he’s not talking here about nonviolently destroying a racist statue–but nowhere in all his writings, as far as I am aware, does he carve out an exception from nonviolent action to say, “Okay, but you really really can’t destroy property, no matter what!” On the contrary, he repeatedly refused to condemn rioting, even when it destroyed property that had a far more tenuous connection to white supremacy. If you’re aware of this exception in his works, lemme know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=7)